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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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 Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| keepingthefaith wrote: | I'm sorry Cove but that is not what i see written through the whole of the Bible
| Quote: | | I understand the great tribulation of Mat. 24 as a specific & expected event that took place in AD 70. After all, Jesus made a prophecy about the temple, & was answering questions about that prophecy. That tribulation could not be repeated once those who had rejected their Messiah had been judged. |
I see only one word to say to all this...Baloney!
(Mods you can discipline me if you like)  |
I have carefully reasoned from the Scriptures. Feel free to disagree with me, also reasoning from the Scriptures, but "baloney" is not an appropriate response.
Several others have also followed the thread. Have I made a reasonable case? I have done this study for the thread, based on an understanding I have come to recently. Previously I held the amil position with a tribulation before the second coming doctrine.
Please show me where I am wrong, but continue to read the Scriptures with the possibility in mind that your received understanding may be wrong. You need particularly to show how & why Paul & the Thessalonians knew details of the antichrist that we do not, if 2T2 is prophecy for our end times & not AD 70. There are of course many other Scriptures that may throw a different light on the questions.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1452
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:28 am Post subject: |
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I would not use the word baloney, but I do not agree with your analysis.
The moon turning to blood etc does not apply to AD 70 IMHO.
Paul had revelation from God and was therefore able to write for our benefit.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1367
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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Cov, please explain what you mean by this statement, | Quote: | Previously I held the amil position with a tribulation before the second coming doctrine.
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Are you saying that you are no longer amillenialist? I consider myself to be amil but I do not believe in either a Great Tribulation or a Rapture of believers. Like you I believe that Jesus, in Matthew 24 was referring both to the destruction of the Temple in AD70 and also to
| Quote: | | warnings that apply to all, down the ages, until heaven & earth pass away |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:47 am Post subject: |
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Thess: 1v6
And you became followers of us and of the Lord,having received the word in much affliction,with joy of the Holy Spirit.
The Thessalonians persevered in the face of persecution.There were great tribulations ,and many martyrs.
1 Thess closes with Christs coming.
But concerning the times and seasons,brethren you have no need that I should write to you
2.For you yourselves know perfectly that the 'day of the Lord' so comes as a thief in the night.
In 2 Thess : false doctrines had crept in causing problems.Paul then explains to them about the coming day of the Lord.
I have my Bible before me and can see this no other way at the moment.
2 Thess 1 talks of Gods final judgment and glory.
V 4 says So that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith 'in all your persecutions and tribulations' that you endure.
Verse 8 'In flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power
2 Thess 2 then goes on to explain the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to Him.
Verse 9 of 2 Thess 1 says ' everlasting destruction' from the presesnce of the Lord,so how can there be a some left behind?
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Still learning................ |
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keepingthefaith
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:56 am Post subject: |
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Christ speaks of two grinding at the mill and one shall be taken....one left behind.
Young's
Luke 17:
34 `I say to you, In that night, there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
36 two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.'
Matt 24:
40 Then two men shall be in the field, the one is received, and the one is left;
41 two women shall be grinding in the mill, one is received, and one is left. |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:00 am Post subject: |
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Jehovahs witnesses believe in the 'unseen presence'"Parousea"
Mathew 25:46 says what? Mathew 25 says the Son of Man wil judge the nations. |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:12 am Post subject: |
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2 Peter 3:10-12
speaks of the Day of the Lord .
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night,in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise,and the elements wll melt with fervent heat;both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up
11.Therefore ,since all these things will be dissolved what manner of persons ought you to be in Holy conduct and Godliness.
12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God,because of which the heavens will be dissolved being on fire,and the elements will melt with fervent heat?
13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
This is the teaching of Peter. |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:23 am Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | Cov, please explain what you mean by this statement, | Quote: | Previously I held the amil position with a tribulation before the second coming doctrine.
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Are you saying that you are no longer amillenialist? I consider myself to be amil but I do not believe in either a Great Tribulation or a Rapture of believers. Like you I believe that Jesus, in Matthew 24 was referring both to the destruction of the Temple in AD70 and also to
| Quote: | | warnings that apply to all, down the ages, until heaven & earth pass away |
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I should have explained what I was saying there. I still hold the amillennial position, but I used to understand that the Mat. 24, Mark 13 & Luke 21 Olivet prophecies in a cryptic way described both the destruction & the second coming. I was always puzzled by the statement that it had to be concluded within the period of this generation. I now consider that the great tribulation is passed, but that we will not escape tribulation from unbelievers, but while that is under God's sovereignty, it is not the great tribulation of Scripture. 2 Thess. 1 makes that clear.
Principles relating to living under persecution, while being faithful to Christ, apply. Watch & pray. The Lord clear gives warning signs relating to AD 70, so all believers would know & not be taken by surprise. Why then say he would come at an hour when you do not expect him? Because he is now talking about the day heaven & earth will pass away. He has moved on to a new subject. That applies to us.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:24 am Post subject: |
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In 1 Thess 5 Christians are exhorted to be watchful lest the 'day of the Lord' overtake them as a thief so when the 'Day of the Lord' is ushered in Christians will still be on the earth 2 Peter 3:11.
Mathew 13 The parable of the Tares and wheat
30 Let both grow together until the harvest,and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn
The parable of the dragnet
49. "So it will be at the end of the age The angels will come forth separate the wicked from among the just. |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| maria wrote: | Jehovahs witnesses believe in the 'unseen presence'"Parousea"
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I do not think they are 100% wrong. Jesus is present with us always, even to the end of the age.
What is wrong is their 1914 parousia teaching & a lot more.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| maria wrote: | In 1 Thess 5 Christians are exhorted to be watchful lest the 'day of the Lord' overtake them as a thief so when the 'Day of the Lord' is ushered in Christians will still be on the earth 2 Peter 3:11.
Mathew 13 The parable of the Tares and wheat
30 Let both grow together until the harvest,and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn
The parable of the dragnet
49. "So it will be at the end of the age The angels will come forth separate the wicked from among the just. |
I am not suggesting for one moment that those Scriptures were fulfilled in AD 70. They apply to the second coming & the resurrection. 1 Thess. 5 clearly shows that the "rapture" interpretation of ch 4 is not intended. If Christians are raptured in 1 T 4, they are not around to be overtaken as [by] a thief.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:37 am Post subject: |
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I am reading Luke 20-37
The coming of the Kingdom.
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharasees when the kingdom of God would come.He answered them and said"The Kingdom of God does not come with observation;
21, Nor will they say.'see here! or see there! For the kingdom of God is within you."
Then Jesus explains about the days of Lot and Noah
27. ...............destroyed them all.
29 destroyed them all. |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:39 am Post subject: |
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Cove
Yes I believe He is with us always.JWs said he came secretly in 1874 also 1914 for His investigative work and He chose JWs to be FDS.
They got his from Adventists. |
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keepingthefaith
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:40 am Post subject: |
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You know we could banter scripture back and forth and it would look as if we all are right, scripture should be looked on literaly and as a whole also if we take away rightly dividing the Truth eg, Israel, the Chrurch the Gentiles, we can more or less apply anything to suit..whatever.
Just to ask who do these verses refer to then Cove
Luke 17:
34 `I say to you, In that night, there shall be two men on one couch, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
35 two women shall be grinding at the same place together, the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left;
36 two men shall be in the field, the one shall be taken, and the other left.'
Also
1Thess416-18
why should the Bible speak of believers being caught up to meet the Lord in the air?
When did this take place...or when do you think this will happen
If you could answer just these two questions please and take them as literal when answering |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:46 pm Post subject: |
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I've got a deacons' meeting tonight, so I will be back, hopefully with answers tomorrow.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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