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Sojourner
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 Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 4:13 pm Post subject: |
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| keepingthefaith wrote: | | Can I just nip in and say that all that is to happen to the Nation of Israel at this present time (in prophecy) and in future aspects of the nation is not because the people are better it is the fact that God has chosen this Nation to Glorify Himself sometimes we loose sight of that. This is why it is imperative to keep focused on Jerusalem and the Nation as a whole because God is working through it...again I repeat for His own Glory |
Absolutely!
20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD, and yet they have gone out of His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Ezekiel 36:20-24 (New King James Version)
God's name (His reputation and honour) has been profaned among the nations because of Israel's dispersion. Therefore He will do what He has promised for Israel - not because they deserve it, but for the sake of His name. It is not a reward for goodness, but a work of His grace (unmerited favour).
He will honour His name by not abandoning this disobedient people to a permanent diaspora. Their return to the land is in line with Biblical prophecy, and will be followed by their prophesied return to the Lord.
I find it incredible that Covenanter cannot see the significance of this and, as Poetress put it, "chooses to circumvent a large part of God's plan". |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Sojourner wrote: | | I find it incredible that Covenanter cannot see the significance of this and, as Poetress put it, "chooses to circumvent a large part of God's plan". |
Why can't I see? I've been examining these things as a Bible believer (& 6-day creationist) since about 1958.
What can't I see?
I can't see sinners being saved after Christ's return (whether it is for rapture or resurrection.)
Heb. 9:26 .... now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
I can't see resurrected & glorified believers back in a substantially unchanged earth with mortal & sinful humans, nor can I see the King of kings & LORD of Lords reigning in person from earthly Jerusalem over a world and a people who after 1,000 years of his gracious presence joining in determined rebellion. Nor can I see the glorious being of Revelation 1 back on earth in human appearance not striking all his mortal & sinful subjects in terror.
I do see the Old Covenant prophecy pointing to the redeeming life & work of the LORD Jesus Christ and the purchased redemption of all his people as the supreme vindication of the divine name. Eph. 3 answers to Ezek. 36:23.
Eph. 3:8 To me, who am less than the least of all the saints, this grace was given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make all see what is the *fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things *through Jesus Christ; 10 to the intent that now the manifold wisdom of God might be made known by the church to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places, 11 according to the eternal purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord,
I see the Old Covenant prophecies, & the promises to Abraham & his descendants as referring to the salvation of not just Israel, but also the Gentiles.
Gen. 22:18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."
Gal. 3:16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed,"* who is Christ.
Isaiah 49:5 "And now the Lord says,
Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him,
So that Israel is *gathered to Him
(For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord,
And My God shall be My strength),
6 Indeed He says,
'It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant
To raise up the tribes of Jacob,
And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles,
That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.'"
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Sojourner
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| Posted: Sun Oct 29, 2006 10:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Covenanter wrote: | | Sojourner wrote: | | I find it incredible that Covenanter cannot see the significance of this and, as Poetress put it, "chooses to circumvent a large part of God's plan". |
Why can't I see? I've been examining these things as a Bible believer (& 6-day creationist) since about 1958.
What can't I see?
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You can't see the significance of Israel's return to the land in fulfillment of these verses I quoted from Ezekiel (and many other passages too);
| Quote: | 20 When they came to the nations, wherever they went, they profaned My holy name—when they said of them, ‘These are the people of the LORD, and yet they have gone out of His land.’ 21 But I had concern for My holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations wherever they went.
22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the LORD,” says the Lord GOD, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes. 24 For I will take you from among the nations, gather you out of all countries, and bring you into your own land. Ezekiel 36:20-24 (New King James Version) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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Sojourner,
As we read on in Ezekiel, we come to:
24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
This is a glorious eternal return to the land, with no suggestion of a temporary 1,000 return that will end with a great Satanic rebellion. Notice the way v. 27 is a quote from Lev. 26:11-12 & is quoted in Rev. 21:3.
Is Ezekiel prophesying what we see beginning to happen in the land today, or the perfect fulfillment & consummation of all God's covenant promises in the New Heaven & New Earth?
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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keepingthefaith
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Is Ezekiel prophesying what we see beginning to happen in the land today, or the perfect fulfillment & consummation of all God's covenant promises in the New Heaven & New Earth?
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New Earth, because this is their (Jews) Eternal Promise. The Church has the Heavenly Promise. King David will sit on the throne (Davinic covenant) but Christ will be all in all and over all |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:00 pm Post subject: |
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| keepingthefaith wrote: | | Quote: | Is Ezekiel prophesying what we see beginning to happen in the land today, or the perfect fulfillment & consummation of all God's covenant promises in the New Heaven & New Earth?
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New Earth, because this is their (Jews) Eternal Promise. The Church has the Heavenly Promise. King David will sit on the throne (Davinic covenant) but Christ will be all in all and over all |
I think, Anne, that you are trying to explain what Scripture has not revealed - the relationship of the NH & NE & who lives where. Your answer implies that Ezek. 37 is referring to the situation after the millennium, not the beginning of it, which is how others see Ezek. 36 - as being the post tribulation restoration of Israel at the beginning of the millennium.
Can you support that eternal division of the two sorts of people of God from Scripture? My Bible, & my Saviour speaks of one flock and one shepherd.
37:24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd;..."
34:11 'For thus says the Lord God: "Indeed I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out. 12 As a shepherd seeks out his flock on the day he is among his scattered sheep, so will I seek out My sheep and deliver them from all the places where they were scattered on a cloudy and dark day. 13 And I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries, and will bring them to their own land; I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, in the valleys and in all the inhabited places of the country.
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16 "I will seek what was lost and bring back what was driven away, bind up the broken and strengthen what was sick; but I will destroy the fat and the strong, and feed them in judgment."
Luke 19:10 "for the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost."
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23 I will establish one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them--My servant David. He shall feed them and be their shepherd. 24 And I, the Lord, will be their God, and My servant David a prince among them; I, the Lord, have spoken.
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30 Thus they shall know that I, the Lord their God, am with them, and they, the house of Israel, are My people," says the Lord God.'"
31 "You are My flock, the flock of My pasture; you are men, and I am your God," says the Lord God.
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep.
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16 And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
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25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, *as I said to you. 27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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keepingthefaith
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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It depends how you take Gods Covenant to Abraham if you believe that God hasn't turned His back on this covenant then you believe (as I do) that God will fulfill all that he has promised to the Nation and people of Israel
24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
Which part of forevermore don't you understand Cove, what would you say forever and everlasting means? or are you saying that these verses apply to *the Church* to?
To believe as I do you would have to believe in differant dispensations (Gods dealing with man down through the ages)
I believe we are now living in Gods day of Grace which will come to an end when the rapture takes place, this is the beginning of Jacobs trouble (the Trib) the people who go through into the Tribulation and survive will go into the Millenium and continue to reproduce (Jew and Gentile) We (the Saints, Christs Church) return to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years and then the new H+E. I am sure you have seen numerous times the Scriptures I would use to verify my way of thinking but this will not make one whit of differance to your views Cove, I only state this as these are the views I hold
Rapture 1Thess 4;17
Trib; Dan 7;8 Rev13;2-10 |
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Sojourner
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 10:55 pm Post subject: |
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| covenanter wrote: | | Is Ezekiel [Ezek 37:24-28] prophesying what we see beginning to happen in the land today, or the perfect fulfillment & consummation of all God's covenant promises in the New Heaven & New Earth? |
The problem you have Cov is that you only see one fulfillment in each prophecy. You cannot see that anything can be fulfilled and still have a final fulfillment. Each passage to you only refers to one event, yet as I pointed out to you before, we know many passages speak of Messiah's coming, for example, and verses to do with both first and second coming are jumbled in together.
My answer to your question is both - mainly the millennium but also ultimately the eternal state. I would go further than that and say some of Ezekiel's prophecy refers to a time before the millennium also.
You rubbish any thought of an earthly millennial reign so you therefore see all Biblical prophecy through your limited "preterist" specs - most things already fulfilled, the few things you do see as left you consider have only one fulfillment at one event only - the Second Coming.
To support your view, words in the passage you quoted, such as "dwell in the land given to Jacob, where your fathers dwelt" and "nations will know that I the Lord sanctify Israel when My Santuary is in their midst forever" and "I will multiply them" cannot be taken at their literal plain meaning. They have to be reinterpreted by yourself. Hence to you they don't mean literal Israel - land and nation of.
The problem with not taking the plain meaning is that you are left interpreting it any way you choose. Can you not see that to me that screams DANGER! How can anyone not taking the plain meaning be sure their interpretation is right?
The other problem Anne hit on when she said;
| Quote: | | It depends how you take Gods Covenant to Abraham if you believe that God hasn't turned His back on this covenant then you believe (as I do) that God will fulfill all that he has promised to the Nation and people of Israel |
You don't see God's covenant with Abraham as being everlasting, or that He still has promises to fulfill to nation of Israel. To you they have forfeited their promises, even though God said it was everlasting and unconditional. Again you have reinterpreted Scripture to fit your views.
God means what He says and does what He says He will do! Why can't you accept that if fulfilled prophecy has been fulfilled literally, then unfulfilled prophecy will also be fulfilled literally?!!
Answering you involves just going over the same ground again and again. As Anne said, it won't make any difference to you whatever we all say - your mind is already made up. |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Wed Nov 01, 2006 11:14 pm Post subject: |
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| keepingthefaith wrote: | It depends how you take Gods Covenant to Abraham if you believe that God hasn't turned His back on this covenant then you believe (as I do) that God will fulfill all that he has promised to the Nation and people of Israel
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God's covenant with Abraham includes all peoples on earth with saving faith.
Rom. 4:9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness.
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16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be *sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, "I have made you a father of many nations")
Clearly the covenant with Abraham ultimate includes believing Gentiles, & does not require separation of believers.
| keepingthefaith wrote: |
24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"
Which part of forevermore don't you understand Cove, what would you say forever and everlasting means? or are you saying that these verses apply to *the Church* to?
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I believe everlasting does not end, whereas the idea of a future earthly millennium has an end. The millennium glories are spoiled by the Satanic rebelion & the millennial earth is replaced by the NH&NE. Paul seemed to understand the covenant promises to Abraham as applying to the church too. (Romans 4)
Neither Hebrews, nor John in Revelation 21 anticipate a future temple or tabernacle, other than the presence of Christ himself with his people. THerefore the temple/tabernacle/sanctuary prophesied by Ezekiel is the people of God built into a living temple for God to dwell in. (Eph. 2, 1 Peter 2.)
| keepingthefaith wrote: | To believe as I do you would have to believe in differant dispensations (Gods dealing with man down through the ages)
I believe we are now living in Gods day of Grace which will come to an end when the rapture takes place, this is the beginning of Jacobs trouble (the Trib) the people who go through into the Tribulation and survive will go into the Millenium and continue to reproduce (Jew and Gentile) We (the Saints, Christs Church) return to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years and then the new H+E. I am sure you have seen numerous times the Scriptures I would use to verify my way of thinking but this will not make one whit of differance to your views Cove, I only state this as these are the views I hold
Rapture 1Thess 4;17
Trib; Dan 7;8 Rev13;2-10 |
If those Scriptures explicitly taught what you believe, I would have no problem with dispensational teaching. The prophecy of Jacob's trouble could be as described in Esther, with its wonderful deliverance.
1 THess 4:17 describes the resurrection, & as you read on, unbelievers suffer at the same "day of the Lord."
Daniel 7:8 seems to refer to Anthiochus Epiphanes.
THere is no exegetical need to place Rev. 13:2-10 in a future tribulation period in another dispensation.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Sojourner
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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| Poetress wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: |
THere is no exegetical need to place Rev. 13:2-10 in a future tribulation period in another dispensation. |
Who is the beast, whose fatal wound was healed? When did this happen? If we read on a little further, what is the mark of the beast, and when did everyone great and small have to take it? When have people been killed if they refused to worship the image of the beast? Remember the passage implies the whole world. |
Exactly Poetress.
Covenanter, when did "all the world marvel and follow the beast" and "all who dwell on earth worship him" and when was he given "authority on earth to make war with the saints for 42 months"?
Also why stop at verse 10 of Rev 13? Verse 11-18 clearly follows immediately as it refers to a second beast present with the first beast, causing people to worship the first beast. Has this taken place as well? As Poetress asked, when did the "mark of the beast" take place on earth?
Why does Daniel 7 only refer to time of Antiochus Epiphanes? The "little horn" of the verse you mention (Dan 7v8) is also the horn of Dan 7v21 who "makes war with the saints until Ancient of Days comes" which corresponds to Rev 13v5-7.
I have already pointed out that Daniel 8 refers not only to the time of Antiochus Epiphanes, but also to a time Jesus said was future.
The more you post the more flabbergasted I am with stuff you come out with. If verses do not clearly fit your views you do spiritual gymnastics with them to try to make them fit.  And you accuse futurists of "religious fiction"! |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Thu Nov 02, 2006 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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Sojourner, Poetress,
I commented on the specific texts Anne cited.
Regarding Daniel,
Daniel sees great empires, which are explained through his book. Babylon, Mede/Persia, Greece, Rome & the fragmented kingdoms following Rome. He sees some specific details of evil rulers, including Antiochus & his 3½ year suspension of the sacrifices. He also sees God reigning over all, and his kingdom superceding all.
In Daniel 7, we see again the great empires, we see God on his eternal throne, & we see the ascension of Christ to claim his eternal kingdom. Notice that in the vision, he comes to the Ancient of days, not from him for his second coming.
Dan 7:13 ¶ I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.
Notice also that after the judgement of v. 10, the lives of the beasts continue without power. (v. 12) Christ has risen & ascended to claim his eternal kingdom, as Peter through the Holy Spirit declared at Pentecost. (Acts 2:29-36)
The 70 weeks prophecy takes us up to about AD 35, probably ending with the stoning of Stephen when the Holy Spirit declared the Jews "uncircumcised." (Acts 7:51) Aspects of that prophecy indicate that after the 70 weeks is finished, the abomination will be set up, & the temple & the city destroyed. Our Lord refers to that destruction in his Olivet prophecy.
I think you are being somewhat harsh in your judgement:
| Quote: | | The more you post the more flabbergasted I am with stuff you come out with. If verses do not clearly fit your views you do spiritual gymnastics with them to try to make them fit. And you accuse futurists of "religious fiction"! |
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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