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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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 Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | John, I'm not going | Quote: | | to deal with the verse [you] put forward |
because I already said that you failed to take it in its full context when you originally quoted it. I thought that was clear enough at the time but apologies if you misunderstood.
Only those with a interest in "homosexual Christians" (an oxymoron), whether from person behaviour or a general "Christian tolerance" will argue as you do. The ABC of the thread title is concerned with Anglican unity, rather than Scripture. Repentance is the first step in becoming a Christian.
I too am now somewhat baffled as to where the discussion about Episcopal and Nonconformist churches is going. It could be argued that NC churches do not consecrate the bread and wine but merely pray over it but even that is almost exclusively done (or at least led) by the NC Minister. In the vast majority of cases NC ministers have undergone theological training at their particular denominational colleges before they were ordained/commissioned to a local church. To all intents and purposes (as I said before) the Baptist Pastor, URC Minister etc is viewed as being equivalent to the CofE Vicar and Catholic Priest.
Theological training does not make one a "priest." Living faith in Christ does so. Being a free church leader/minister/pastor/elder may be "viewed" by those in "established" churches as equivalent of priesthood but there are vital theological differences. In terms of respect due to an elder, training & experience, etc, he should be able to to give sound teaching & pastoral advice in a way that a young in the faith Christian cannot. That in no way denies the priesthood of the young in the faith Christian, who has immediate & perfect access to God through his Saviour, which is what priesthood is about, without any human intermediary, or "priest."
The ABC may by virtue of his office appear to speak for "the church" but in truth he has no more authority that the Scribes & Pharisees of Jesus' day. His title & office & robes are so much dross.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:06 pm Post subject: |
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| Cov, "homosexual Christian" is no more an oxymoron than "heterosexual Christian". At a very recent event in Cambridge the A of C was asked about homosexuality. His reply made it clear that he does not believe that the Bible has anything to say against homosexual orientation but does have much to say against irresponsible sexual behaviours in general. I agree with him. He also cited the example of slavery which Christians condoned for centuries before it was abolished. The scriptures concerned with slaves have not changed but our attitude towards that concept has. There is also a case to be made that the Archbishop is perhaps more concerned with avoiding unnecessary schism than pursuing unity at any cost. He does not want to see schism occuring but neither does he want one wing of the Church to control the entire body. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | His reply made it clear that he does not believe that the Bible has anything to say against homosexual orientation but does have much to say against irresponsible sexual behaviours in general |
That is as far as I am concerned taken as read.
I still do not see that your interpretation of the portion in Romans is correct.
| Quote: | | Being a free church leader/minister/pastor/elder may be "viewed" by those in "established" churches as equivalent of priesthood but there are vital theological differences. |
The episcopal do not accept the non nonformist ministers as equivalent. They will usually refuse to accept communion from one.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:53 pm Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | The episcopal do not accept the non nonformist ministers as equivalent. They will usually refuse to accept communion from one. |
Is this hearsay, anecdote or official policy? If the latter can it be verified please? |
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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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[ | Quote: | quote="bobbyc"] | Eddie c wrote: | | Quote: | Eddie, the clergy/laity distinction is not a
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class system
one any more than Pastors & Elders/ Congregation Members is. Priests and Vicars serve their congregations in exactly the way that Pastors and Elders do. |
Bobby, we get Bishops dressing up in fancy garb and wearing crowns and living in Palaces and having grand titles and claiming special powers it does tend to create a class distinction.
Eddie |
It's sad that you seem unable to see beyond the regalia Eddie. Your prejudices are showing. What though is the essential difference between the titles of bishop and member of parliament for example? Is there a class distinction between MPs and their constituents? And what special powers do bishops claim, pray tell? They have a jurisdiction over local vicars but that is simply because their responsibility is to the larger diocese as opposed to the smaller parish. In essence it's no different from being like an Area Manager.
Previously you mentioned that your own local church is Independent Evangelical. I assume that means you are affiliated to the FIEC (Fellowship of IE Churches). Well even that network has a national General Secretary who has a pastoral responsibility to the local assemblies and who would be the arbiter in any dispute that could not be solved internally. In actual fact I know the current Gen Sec of the FIEC because he was the minister (pastor if you prefer) at my local Baptist Church.
The bottom line of all this is that even nonconformist Churches have their own local and national structure. It might not be quite so rigid or enshrined as the Episcopal Churches but the same sort of hierarchy does exist within NC circles. |
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Bobby, why wear the "regalia"?. What is it trying to portray?. Jesus had much to say to those in his day who set themselves apart ....Matt ch 23. It might be best to keep MPs out of this discussion since they have enough problems dealing with thier misuse of public funds.
So far you have accused me of having a "narrow"view of christianity, of letting my prejudices show,and now you are making assumptions. The local church where i choose to worship is not affiliated to FIEC.
I will be back later.
Eddie
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:23 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is this hearsay, anecdote or official policy? If the latter can it be verified please? |
Have you given details of proof of yopur wild statements?
In this case a eccmenical "campaign" took place at Exeter University.
At the conclusion it was decided to hold a communion service. The CofE minister said that he was not allowed to take communion from other than a CofE "accredited" minister.
I know persoannly some people involved.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Eddie, I don't know that the regalia is supposed to show anything other than the office of the churchman wearing it but I'm not the one making it into an issue. Since we probably both agree that the clothes themselves make little or no difference to the wearer isn't it true to say that your objections to them are as much down to your own prejudices as anything else? The scribes and pharisees in Matthew 23 were guilty of a haughty and arrogant attitude. The "robes" as such were merely the window dressing. It was the attitude that Jesus condemned not the clothes and accoutrements themselves.
As to the assumption I made I think it was quite a logical one. The fact that your church is not affiliated to the FIEC does not invalidate the point I was making.
John, what have I made? |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:19 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | John, in reality Nonconformist churches only allow ministers, elders, deacons to adminster communion. |
Wild and inaccurate.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 8:38 pm Post subject: |
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| It is not wild and inaccurate. It reflects custom and practice I have observed over a number of years in a variety of churches. It may not be written down as NC Church Law but I defy anyone to prove that communion is regularly (if ever) led by 'ordinary' members of the congregation. If the NC church has a minister/pastor then he (or she as is the case in some URC and Methodist churches) will lead the communion service. S/he wil be assisted by those members of the church who are the elders or deacons. On only a few occasions will any of those 'ordinary' members of the congregation pray over and distribute the bread and wine. I therefore speak from personal awareness and observation and discussions with Christians from varying backgrounds in my time at College and over the years. Hardly a wild and inaccurate statement then is it? |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject: |
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It is inaccurate.
Over many years I have conducted communion services. And attended communion services conduced by "ordinary" members of the congregation.
Until I was in my late twenties I had NEVER been at one conducted by an "ordained" minister.
Your experiance is limited and to pontificate from limited knowledge is wild and inaccurate.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Hmm, interesting. My observations are wild and inaccurate pontifications based on limited experience whilst your own limited experiences appear to be the exact opposite. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 7:42 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I defy anyone to prove that communion is regularly (if ever) led by 'ordinary' members of the congregation. |
| Quote: | Quote:
John, in reality Nonconformist churches only allow ministers, elders, deacons to adminster communion.
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I have just told you that I have experianced many many communions conducted by non ordained, nonmimisters.
A clear demonstration that your statement is wrong. Unless you are accusing me of lying.
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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
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Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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Bobby, what do you think happens in the thousands of "house-churches" where there is no "ordained" minister. Bread is broken and wine passed....any christian can and does lead. Like jtheb i have been at many "communions" led by "ordinary" members of the congregation. I have also led such times. Whats the big deal...it happens.
| Quote: | | Eddie, I don't know that the regalia is supposed to show anything other than the office of the churchman wearing it but I'm not the one making it into an issue. Since we probably both agree that the clothes themselves make little or no difference to the wearer isn't it true to say that your objections to them are as much down to your own prejudices as anything else? The scribes and pharisees in Matthew 23 were guilty of a haughty and arrogant attitude. The "robes" as such were merely the window dressing. It was the attitude that Jesus condemned not the clothes and accoutrements themselves |
Well if all the gear matters not, then why wear it. Yes,IMO all this regalia is divisive,it creates an us and them mentality,Clergy----Laity.
But i agree with you in that all this is just window dressing. Far more worrying is the acceptance of ungodly and un-natural behaviour,and the role of women in the position of Elders. This is what appears to be spliting the Anglican Church apart.
Eddie
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Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 2142
Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject: |
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I don't believe anyone is calling anyone a liar, J.
This has been an incredibly interesting discussion IMO, but I wonder if a calming is in order at the moment?
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I don't believe anyone is calling anyone a liar, J. |
No! didn't think he was. But my evidence seemed to be left out of the discussion and I wanted to emphasise that.
No sure the discussion is going anywhere but I can't very well mod on my own postings.
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