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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Manchester
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 8:59 am Post subject: |
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Bobby,
| Quote: | | Eddie (and Cov) I don't believe that Scripture has to be interpreted the same way that you do |
Fair enough.
| Quote: | | Discrimination does not mean 'to choose'. It means 'to favour or prefer one group, set or class at the expense of another'. In my book, John 3.16 proves that God does not discriminate. So much of Church history and current practice in some quarters proves to me that Man does though. |
It does in my dictionary. It means "discernment" or"to distinguish"--to"select". I believe that God has given men and women different roles,and not at the "expense" of the other,but rather to benefit--compliment each other. Its true that many men have and still do abuse this arrangment, but that does not negate Gods order.
Eddie
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | | It may even be the case that those denominations (Methodists, URC etc) are also accepting of homosexual Christians within their ranks. |
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
2 Peter 2:6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)– 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment,
Are we "unchristian" to be distressed by the acceptance of homosexuality as normal & to reject homosexuals as bona fide Christians?
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:27 am Post subject: |
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crystal
What I meant was that for all the nonconformist claims that all members are equal (priesthood of all believers and all that) such churches still maintain and practise a hierarchy. This is most usually seen in the fact of most nonconformist churches having ministers and (elected) elders. It will be these people who conduct the communion service. Even in churches who have no ordained minister (e.g. Independent Methodists) there is still a President who, by virtue of his title, is the de facto leader of that local church. Even in those circumstances it will be the President or some other member of the church governing body who oversees, introduces and leads whatever passes for their communion service. Whether the bread is received 'at the front' or taken from a plate passed around the communicants is pretty irrelevant really since my major point is that Nonconformists practice a hierarchy that mirrors CofE and Catholic churches where the vicar/priest presides over the eucharistic meal.
What happened in that church where you were told that nobody was worthy to receive communion? There used to be a prayer in the Anglican Service Book in which we declared that we were unworthy to partake of the feast but we also gave thanks that by the blood of Christ we were invited to receive and so were made worthy. Sorry but I can't recall the exact wording.
Actually that raises another little bete noir of mine as regards who exactly is able to receive communion. I have been in churches where it is seen as a privilege for accepted believers only and people who are not members of that church (or of one affiliated to it) are 'encouraged' to let the bread and cup pass by. As far as I am concerned the communion meal represents and commemmorates the sacrifice of Christ on the cross and since that sacrifice was offered for all I can see no justification for withholding it from anyone. |
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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Bobby, there are it seems no end to the way different denominations do things. I have experienced what you describe. The church i meet with is an Independent Evangelical. We have elders and deacons,all male. There is an ongoing discussion about female deacons. We dont have a pastor. We operate an open "Table". All believers are welcome. The "breaking of bread" is led by whoever happens to be leading the service. This is usually one of the elders or deacons but not always. We would be quite happy for any christian,male or female to give thanks and distribute the bread and wine,and this does happen. I have been in churches where if the "ordained Minister" is not present they dont break bread. I dont like this Clergy---Laity class system,its not what Jesus intended IMO.
I think we forget that we have one leader..Christ. We are brothers and sisters. Yes Eldership is male, but elders are servants. They are to serve the church.
Eddie
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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You have, of course, Bobby ignored my posting.
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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Eddie (and Cov) I don't believe that Scripture has to be interpreted the same way that you do. If it is true that there is now no distinction between male or female, Jew or Greek, slave or free then it is wrong to deny women access to the priesthood or eldership of local churches. That the Bible grew from and out of a patriarchial society is simply its historical context. That in itself does not prove that we should remain as such. |
Bobby this verse must be taken in context. Galations Ch 3:28. This verse is talking about the inheritance we have in Christ. Because we are "In Christ" we receive the inheritance that can only be enjoyed by the firstborn Son. Verse 26 says "You are all SONS of God.
Paul is not saying that in reality there are now no longer any males nor females,in fact he gives much advice to Males and to Females,recognising the differences. The bible goes further and says that wives should be in "subjection"to thier husbands. This also gets the advocates of feminism hopping mad because they misunderstand Gods arrangments....His order of things. I know this is true.....i asked my wife.
Eddie
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:01 am Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | You have, of course, Bobby ignored my posting. |
Which one? I have read (again) Romans 1.27, plus its surrounding verses, and still don't reach the conclusion that you apparently do.
Your comment about many nonconformist churches allowing communion to be conducted by anyone at all does not tally with my own experiences nor what Eddie has written. Maybe it's true in your situation but I'd venture to suggest that yours is the exception not the rule. I'm not arguing with your observation that Established Churches | Quote: | | restrict the consecration of the sacramant to a "priest", and the giving of absolution also |
because you have described an indisputable fact. It would appear that you think that is wrong though. Out of curiosity, would you classify Methodists as Nonconformist or Established?
Eddie, the clergy/laity distinction is not a one any more than Pastors & Elders/ Congregation Members is. Priests and Vicars serve their congregations in exactly the way that Pastors and Elders do. |
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Eddie c
Joined: 16 Sep 2006
Posts: 685
Location: Manchester
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:15 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Eddie, the clergy/laity distinction is not a
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class system
one any more than Pastors & Elders/ Congregation Members is. Priests and Vicars serve their congregations in exactly the way that Pastors and Elders do. |
Bobby, we get Bishops dressing up in fancy garb and wearing crowns and living in Palaces and having grand titles and claiming special powers it does tend to create a class distinction.
Eddie
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Context of Romans 1.27 needs addressing. Namely that Paul is referring to (pagans?) who have replaced worship of God with worship of created things. Not exactly the same thing as saying that people with homosexual natures are forbidden from being or becoming Christians.
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| Quote: | 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,
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I find your comments unconvincing. What does the portion say about worshiping created things?
That is at the start of the section but we see from "2 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
that these are people who know what is right and wrong.
Regarding "priesthood". Methodists require those celebrating communion to be "approved", Baptist are open to any member or person acceptable to the fellowship. Brethren are the same. Most pentecostal also and housechurches would also fit.
I repeat that only CofE RC and Orthodox require "Priesthood" conferred upon the person by the denomination.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: |
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| Eddie c wrote: | | Quote: | Eddie, the clergy/laity distinction is not a
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class system
one any more than Pastors & Elders/ Congregation Members is. Priests and Vicars serve their congregations in exactly the way that Pastors and Elders do. |
Bobby, we get Bishops dressing up in fancy garb and wearing crowns and living in Palaces and having grand titles and claiming special powers it does tend to create a class distinction.
Eddie |
It's sad that you seem unable to see beyond the regalia Eddie. Your prejudices are showing. What though is the essential difference between the titles of bishop and member of parliament for example? Is there a class distinction between MPs and their constituents? And what special powers do bishops claim, pray tell? They have a jurisdiction over local vicars but that is simply because their responsibility is to the larger diocese as opposed to the smaller parish. In essence it's no different from being like an Area Manager.
Previously you mentioned that your own local church is Independent Evangelical. I assume that means you are affiliated to the FIEC (Fellowship of IE Churches). Well even that network has a national General Secretary who has a pastoral responsibility to the local assemblies and who would be the arbiter in any dispute that could not be solved internally. In actual fact I know the current Gen Sec of the FIEC because he was the minister (pastor if you prefer) at my local Baptist Church.
The bottom line of all this is that even nonconformist Churches have their own local and national structure. It might not be quite so rigid or enshrined as the Episcopal Churches but the same sort of hierarchy does exist within NC circles. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | Quote: | Context of Romans 1.27 needs addressing. Namely that Paul is referring to (pagans?) who have replaced worship of God with worship of created things. Not exactly the same thing as saying that people with homosexual natures are forbidden from being or becoming Christians.
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| Quote: | 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,
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I find your comments unconvincing. What does the portion say about worshiping created things?
That is at the start of the section but we see from "2 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them."
that these are people who know what is right and wrong.
Regarding "priesthood". Methodists require those celebrating communion to be "approved", Baptist are open to any member or person acceptable to the fellowship. Brethren are the same. Most pentecostal also and housechurches would also fit.
I repeat that only CofE RC and Orthodox require "Priesthood" conferred upon the person by the denomination. |
John, a text taken out of context is a pretext. I trust you are intelligent enough to realise that.
As regards "priesthood" are not Baptist Pastors, URC Ministers and so on not recognised and commissioned by their denominations? My late father in law trained for the URC ministry and was deemed, by the denomination on a national level and the local church(es) whose minister he became on a local level, to be the local equivalent of the neighbouring Vicar or Parish Priest. The pastor appointed to replace the FIEC Gen Sec (see my previous post to Eddie) as the local Baptist Minister is in every sense seen as that church's equivalent of my home town's Anglican and Methodist Ministers. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:44 am Post subject: |
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Are we talking at cross purposes/
Some denominations have a hierarchical structure. Some more rigid than others.
Only the ones I have listed have, to my knowledge, a priesthood with special theological authority. Consecration of bread and wine, granting absolution. etc.
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 11:48 am Post subject: |
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Quoting a little saying doesn't prove anything unless it deals with the question.
You picked a verse away from the one I gave to try to change the meaning. You have failed to deal with the verse I put forward.
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Last edited by jtheb on Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:06 pm Post subject: |
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John, I'm not going | Quote: | | to deal with the verse [you] put forward |
because I already said that you failed to take it in its full context when you originally quoted it. I thought that was clear enough at the time but apologies if you misunderstood.
I too am now somewhat baffled as to where the discussion about Episcopal and Nonconformist churches is going. It could be argued that NC churches do not consecrate the bread and wine but merely pray over it but even that is almost exclusively done (or at least led) by the NC Minister. In the vast majority of cases NC ministers have undergone theological training at their particular denominational colleges before they were ordained/commissioned to a local church. To all intents and purposes (as I said before) the Baptist Pastor, URC Minister etc is viewed as being equivalent to the CofE Vicar and Catholic Priest. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | To all intents and purposes (as I said before) the Baptist Pastor, URC Minister etc is viewed as being equivalent to the CofE Vicar and Catholic Priest. |
Only if you ignore the "priestly" authority that the CoFE,RC man has.
Many non conformist churches do not require "ordination" in anyone conducting the communion.
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