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Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
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Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
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Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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 Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 10:33 am Post subject: |
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It struck me when I first heard this that the Archbishop is misguided. Then I wondered if he was in fact trying to get people to come out and say that we do not want this to happen here.
The phrase give and inch comes to mind because I do believe that if we start changing the legal system for one group of immigrants then where will it stop.
This is not a racist knee jerk reaction but the reaction of someone who is concerned that we are losing Christian values in this country. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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Unfortunately the A o C has been misunderstood, especially by the tabloidese mentality of certain newspapers and chatty news broadcasts. Essentially he is arguing for sharia law to be used when it is appropriate and within the confines of Muslim practice anyway. Two examples would be house purchases, where Stamp Duty cuts across Koranic advice and instruction about conducting financial affairs, and Muslim wedding ceremonies which I believe currently are not recognised without there having to be a civil ceremony in a registrar's office. What Dr Williams is positively not advocating or expressing as inevitable is the notion that Shariah Law as it is sometimes used to treat women or call for the death sentence is going to be introduced into this country.
The problem is that people think of different things whenever the term "sharia law" is mentioned. Some see it only as a measure of how violent Islam is but the use of sharia law within the Muslim community is really no different from the Jewish equivalent of the Beth Din and nobody is suggesting that Beth Din is 'inevitably' going to replace English Civil Law.
I sympathise with the Archbishop because he has copped an awful lot of unnecessary flak but to a large extent he is the author of his own misfortune. Out of a 7000 word essay which is often densely (in the sense of profoundly) argued a few 'soundbites' have been grabbed and quoted out of context. He has failed to grasp that writing and speaking to an audience of academics and theologians cannot be done with the same expectation of understanding by the press and the public. He needs to learn how to communicate with 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' much more effectively. |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 2:32 pm Post subject: |
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I am not surprised that you say that the Archbishop has been misrepresented. However I still have reservations about sharia law being introduced for any reason.
The examples you use seem to be not that valid. This country has rules and laws and they should be for the whole community, once you start to say well our religion says we must not pay stamp duty they why should anyone pay it? As for the wedding ceremony I have been to weddings where the bride and groom "did the paperwork at the registry office" up to a week before there wedding. They have not considered themselves married until the ceremony. Both the weddings then took place in Christian churches.
There is no place in any society for different rules for different people, it causes mayhem at best.
It also seems that some Sharia courts already exist in this country and they are bypassing our legal system. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1448
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 3:30 pm Post subject: |
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Many non conformist churches do not have a registrar and have to arrange for one to attend the ceremony.
This would be OK for the islamic weddings.
I would like to know what authority the Beth din has.
I would think a court where a wonam has either no right to witness or only half a man's is not acceptable in British law.
Or. Can a man who wishes to divorce but has no acceptable case say he is a moslem and divorce under islamic law?
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:40 pm Post subject: |
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Why not try putting Beth Din in your search engine John? You'll get this site along http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beth_din with many others.
Why are you "not surprised" that I would argue that the Archbishop has been misrepresented crystal? Your post carries connotations that you might not have intended but are there nonetheless. Please could you explain yourself?
You seem to be under the impression that sharia law is intended to replace British law but that is really wide of the mark and I repeat is not what the Archbishop was advocating or forecasting. |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
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| Posted: Sat Feb 09, 2008 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | Why are you "not surprised" that I would argue that the Archbishop has been misrepresented crystal? Your post carries connotations that you might not have intended but are there nonetheless. Please could you explain yourself?
You seem to be under the impression that sharia law is intended to replace British law but that is really wide of the mark and I repeat is not what the Archbishop was advocating or forecasting. |
Not surprised because the media use spin and would happily quote in such a way that they can twist what was said.
As for the Sharia law replacing British law I believe that it is a strong possibility. We are told by the media, that within a generatioin muslims will be the majority group in this country. So it is not a panic reaction to believe that eventually we could have our law system changed. In fact in some areas muslims already go to the elders to use their laws instead of the laws of the land. This is not for the things like marital and financial law that was talked about but for things like GBH. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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| crystal wrote: | | As for the Sharia law replacing British law I believe that it is a strong possibility. We are told by the media, that within a generatioin muslims will be the majority group in this country. So it is not a panic reaction to believe that eventually we could have our law system changed. In fact in some areas muslims already go to the elders to use their laws instead of the laws of the land. This is not for the things like marital and financial law that was talked about but for things like GBH. |
You say that the media are guilty of spin and deception and yet you believe the reports that Muslims will soon be the majority group in this country. That could only happen if immigration (of Muslims) and conversion to Islam exceeds the birth rate. How likely is that? As for your allegation about "things like GBH" please state your sources. Go to page 125 and 126 of Ceefax for a better balanced overview of how sharia law is used and referred to than you'd find from papers like the Daily Mail. |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:27 pm Post subject: |
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Bobby if you would rather go for personal comments then I think you need to get your facts right, I have not got my information from the Daily Mail I prefer to use something like google news so that I can see a broad range of sources.
As for the idea of muslims out numbering Christians it is a matter of simple maths. Not all of the people in this country are Christians. Also the birth rate in different ethnic groups shows that certain races and religions tend to have bigger families. It does not take a clever person to see that eventually Christians will be a minority group.
I have grave concerns that we should not have different laws for different ethnic groups. After all most muslims have decided to live here, albeit for many families a few generations ago. But they still came here despite the legal system. So why do we suddenly need to change it? Would Pakistan change their laws for the Christians there? I think not. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:57 pm Post subject: |
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crystal, I never said that you used the Daily Mail as a source for your beliefs or opinions. I cited it purely as an example of a source that is not particularly trustworthy because of its inbuilt bias so that wasn't a personal comment at all. Please don't read into my words something that isn't there. That's exactly how the fuss about the A of C's comments came about in the first place.
How many Muslim families do you know to be so certain that they "tend to have bigger families"? If you want to deal in facts then do so without resorting to generalisations and stereotypes that are not all that accurate. Immigrant communities tend to have larger households because they are more likely to live as extended families. That's not the same thing as having more children thereby increasing the numbers of Muslims as opposed to the number of ethnic English babies being born.
Also, you are stubbornly persisting with the mistaken belief that the laws of this country are going to be changed to suit the demands, whims and desires of the Muslim community. Not even the Muslims themselves are arguing for sharia law to replace English civil law. At most they want sharia law to be recognised as an appropriate tool for deciding civil matters amongst themelves. In fact, as Dr Williams pointed out, that is happening to some extent already but as he was also at pains to point out neither he nor anyone else is advocating that this should become the norm as an alternative to our national laws. As I said in my first post on this thread, Orthodox Jews in this country appeal to the Beth Din for guidance in certain appropriate circumstances. If you (or anyone) want to argue that Muslims should not be able to appeal to the principles of sharia law then simply in order to be consistent they should argue against Jews using the Beth Din system as well. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Mon Feb 11, 2008 10:23 pm Post subject: |
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Further to my post above, this data from the 2001 Census provides some interesting statistics.
http://www.statistics.gov.uk/focuson/ethnicity/default.asp
Click on Population Size and then Religion from the list on the left.
40 million people declared themselves to be White Christians
686,000 Pakistani Muslims
471,000 Indian Hindus
307,000 Indian Sikhs
261,000 Bangladeshi Muslims
71.8% of the population claimed Christianity as their religious affiliation compared to 15.1% who declared no religious affiliation at all. Muslims accounted for just 2.8% of the population.
I never passed my Maths O Level but even to me it looks like it's going to take an awfully long time before other faiths outnumber Christians in this country. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:19 am Post subject: |
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I think you stats are correct. But I do not know a moslem family with less than four children. Perhaps I just know the right families.
Moslem divorce would not fit with british system. As does not jewish.
Women are not entitled to give evidence, Jewish law says two women equal one man.
Some adjustment or over ruling seems needed.
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C.S.Craig |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Ian on Reachout Trust
I think Williams was foolish to speak as he did without making clear "bullet points" to be quoted in the media. He doesn't want sharia law, but considers that a significant Muslim population should be allowed to have certain aspects of law, particularly family law, governed by sharia. He said this was "inevitable." He explicitly said that criminal law should NOT be included.
Oppression of women, amputations & floggings, honour killings, would not be countenanced by a liberal Archbishop.
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This should not be an argument about semantics, press misrepresentation & sound bites.
Our Sudanese member said her sister in a Muslim country has two daughters. They have no rights of inheritance, even if the parents make their will in their favour. A will does not override Sharia. All property will pass to their uncle. The only way for the daughters to receive is for the parents to give to them while thehy live.
The trouble with William's apparent approval of Sharia is that he will be quoted in Muslim countries as approving Sharia. Christians in such countries will find that Williams has given a rod to their persecutors.
A man in such a position should be careful to state very clear main points. He should not expect people to have to read his small print.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:45 pm Post subject: Thought for the day - Tuesday |
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A Hindu viewpoint:
| Akhandadhi Das wrote: | I was struck by one Sunday columnist's opinion that British laws embody the best of our values. In one sense, I agree that our laws reflect some of the best principles of any civilisation and have created the country I am most happy to live in. However, it is wrong to say that state laws embody the highest values of a society. They actually define the lowest level of behaviour we are willing to tolerate. State laws don't promote the best behaviour - they're designed to stop the worst.
But, a civilised society shouldn't hover just above the lowest boundary of what is acceptable. It must aspire to so much more. We need inspirational influences which extol positive qualities of kindness, generosity and responsibility to others. Religion often gets into a mess when it tries to affect the laws we all agree to live by. It succeeds best when it offers a vision of ideal human behaviour and provides a spiritual process of personal transformation that helps us grow towards that ideal. |
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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