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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
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 Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | | I agree with Cov that scripture (not just John's Gospel) is pretty clear that Christ came offering salvation to all. It is for that reason that I personally reject the Calvinist notion of there being a special elite (the Elect) for whom Christ died. John 3 does make it clear that God so loved the world not just a portion. |
I don't consider that the "world" &"all" texts establish or refute reformed doctrine (aka calvinism.) We haven't reach John 3 yet (I referred to it because of "kosmso") but 3:36 is hardly an expression of the universal redeeming love of God:
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”
| Quote: | I take it that 'his own things' means the world, and that 'his own people' means either the Jews or possibly humanity in general.
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I suggest that "his own" refers to the Jews as distinct from "the world." In 1:29 John emphasises Jesus' ministry of redeeming the world - a wider ministry than the Passover lamb against a greater enemy than the Egyptians.
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davelarge
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| Covenanter wrote: | | I suggest that "his own" refers to the Jews as distinct from "the world." In 1:29 John emphasises Jesus' ministry of redeeming the world - a wider ministry than the Passover lamb against a greater enemy than the Egyptians. |
So, in your opinion is there also a less literal meaning of this verse along the lines of each individual in history (post Jesus) rejecting him?
davelarge
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 12:26 pm Post subject: |
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| davelarge wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: | | I suggest that "his own" refers to the Jews as distinct from "the world." In 1:29 John emphasises Jesus' ministry of redeeming the world - a wider ministry than the Passover lamb against a greater enemy than the Egyptians. |
So, in your opinion is there also a less literal meaning of this verse along the lines of each individual in history (post Jesus) rejecting him?
davelarge |
Doesn't follow.
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davelarge
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:37 am Post subject: |
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Fair enough 8¬) I'm not sure it's there either. Shall we move on?
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 7:30 am Post subject: |
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How do we understand the ministry of John? What is baptism, & why?
Was it a new ceremony with no basis in the Old Covenant, or was it the antitype ritual for all the Old Covenant baptisms? (Heb. 9:10 is literally "various baptisms.")
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:03 am Post subject: |
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I am told that converts to judaism were baptised as well as circumcision and other rituals.
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 10:25 am Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | I am told that converts to judaism were baptised as well as circumcision and other rituals. |
If that is true, why should John baptise Jews? In any case the written references post date the Gospels. http://edwardfudge.com/gracemails/baptism_backgrounds.html
Also why did the Pharisees apparently approve John's right to baptise, were he Christ, Elijah or the Prophet, even though they refused it for themselves, and John denied being Elijah?
24 Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25 questioned him, "Why then do you baptise if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"
I do not consider John's denial significant, as Jesus himself did not proclaim himself to be the Christ, the Son of God. Going in the spirit & power of Elijah made him the Elijah prophesied, but not a reincarnation.
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:09 am Post subject: |
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John was baptising a baptism of repentance not of conversion.
The attitude of the pharisees seems to have been "we are jews the offspring of Abraham we don't need any more."
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:22 am Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | John was baptising a baptism of repentance not of conversion.
The attitude of the pharisees seems to have been "we are jews the offspring of Abraham we don't need any more." |
What is the basis for a baptism of repentance, rather than the prescribed sacrifices? Why baptism? Why did Jews submit?
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his
baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: |
Baptism seem to have been the beginning of a "new life".
So repentance and turning over a new leaf is signified by baptism.
As to why the Jews did that as well as sacrifices. I am not a first century jew, ask one of them.
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:45 pm Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | Quote: | 5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his
baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: |
Baptism seem to have been the beginning of a "new life".
So repentance and turning over a new leaf is signified by baptism.
As to why the Jews did that as well as sacrifices. I am not a first century jew, ask one of them. |
You sign yourself "Jtheb" so I hoped for a reasoned answer.
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:52 pm Post subject: |
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Even someone as old as I am doesn't know everything about the first century.
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davelarge
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | As to why the Jews did that as well as sacrifices. I am not a first century jew, ask one of them. |
I'm certainly not a first-century Jew, but weren't the sacrifices prescribed in the Torah?
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Is there any indication that they didn't offer sacrifices?
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Covenanter
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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Where is "baptism" explicitly referred to in the OC Scriptures? Most first C Jews used the LXX, so we can look there.
2 Kings 5:15 So he went down and dipped himself (Heb tabal, LXX ebaptisato) in the Jordan seven times, as the man of God had told him,
Who was mentioned in Jesus first recorded sermon in Luke 4?
I haven't got a searchable LXX, & I am dependent on Strong & the Blue Letter Bible for Hebrew & Greek. If we note that ebaptisato is the LXX for tabal normally translated "dipped" we can do a Strong search for 02881. Where it is used in rituals, it is in a dip and sprinkle routine. Blue Letter Bible - tabal 02881
Another very helpful first century Jew we can ask is the writer to the Hebrews. Chapter 9 give several examples of OC baptism.
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