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keepingthefaith
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 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:52 pm Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | Wrong on all counts Paul.
Accepting the bible literally is not and has never been a condition of being saved except in relatively recent times. The belief in biblical inerrancy (which is what you are advocating) can be traced back to the Bible Conference of Conservative Christians held at Niagara in 1895. This led to a series of pamphlets issued between 1910 and 1915 called The Fundamentals.
That I don't accept literalism or inerrancy is a problem not to my faith but to yours. It's a bit like the reverse of your own advocacy of baptism in the spirit, speaking in tongues, spiritual gifts etc that I was recently reading on the thread about spiritual gifts.
My faith is not being questioned or doubted by anything I have written but only by your own (and michael's) particular understanding of what a Christian is. I remain grateful to TT who at least has had the grace to accept the validity of my faith even though acknowledging that it differs from how she works out her own.
By your own logic you'd have to conclude that Covenanter's faith is in doubt because he (like me) does not accept that the miracles (or signs and wonders) gifts of apostolic times are pertinent and valid for today. After all, what is the difference between viewing Genesis 1-3 differently to you and doing the same with 1 Corinthians 12 - 14? By a similar token you must also question the validity of theo's faith. Are you quite sure that you want to abrogate God's position? |
I don't believe Pauls comments to you were necessary but
Bobby, you yourself have a way that is quite abnoxious to other posters and your implications to others do not go unoticed. the fact that you seem to enjoy exsaperating the situations instead of trying to defuse them.
It would help discussions also if we all knew when to stop (myself included) |
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michael
Joined: 26 Apr 2007
Posts: 28
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| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 10:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | It might come across as arrogant, but it is factual. If you were truly born again, you would recognise the Bible as literally true. |
Paul
I know what you are saying but your wording needs to be diferent. The term 'literally true' will be taken completely out of context to mean that every single statement in the Bible has to be taken literally.
So you will be asked a range of questions like 'do you actualluy cut off your offending right arm!', etc
A Bible that is true is truthful in everything it says, from Genesis to Revelation.
In the Bible are a range of different styles of writing, parables, usages of language, etc. These all are to be read in an appropriate manner.
To take the fact that, say, a parable is not literally true and then use that to justify that Genesis 1-11 can also be taken as a parable is, in the context of the whole Bible, simply erroneous.
It is also essential that the Bible is read with an understanding of what the words meant at the time of writing, or if using a translation, what the words meant to the readers at the time of the translation. |
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Talitha Tetelestai
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| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 5:35 am Post subject: |
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Just to make it clear,
Bobby, I don't doubt your salvation,at all, or that of anyone here.
I do, however, remain utterly perplexed as to how you come to the position you hold.
But,given my nasty fundie stance I'm guessing thats not a surprise.  |
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genea
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:16 pm Post subject: |
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Bobby
this is my very firsyt post here but I am fascinated already and would love to know (in a nutshell) what your basic view of origins is and how that has worked out in history over how long....post a link if you wish or indulge my laziness and just tell me |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1345
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| Posted: Fri May 04, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: |
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| Hello genea. I'm glad you have found various debates here interesting and (I hope) useful. Just for the sake of clarity can you explain what you mean by the word 'origins'? Are you using it in reference to the evolutionary idea that mankind has evolved from apes or in the context of biblical origins and my understanding of God's acts of creation? If you like you can pm me to develop this discussion. That way the risk of people getting angry is minimised. |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 7:41 am Post subject: |
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I hear Johan Huibers (creationist) has built an ark
Schagan Netherlands |
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Paul
Joined: 26 Jun 2006
Posts: 50
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 8:21 am Post subject: |
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Of course, it is possible to be saved and have wrong ideas.
However, when the truth of scripture is continually pointed out, and a person refuses to accept it, and to repent of their former position, there has to be something deeply spiritually wrong.
The important theological reasons for rejecting both evolutionism and old earth creationism have been rehearsed here many times. There comes a point where one has to say that the continued rejection of biblical truth becomes disobedience to God. A literal belief in the Bible is not necessary for salvation. It is, however, an obvious sign of salvation, and if it is not present, then I have to say it is incumbent on us to question that salvation, not to be awkward, but out of concern for the individual concerned. What benefit is there in buttering someone up, and persuading them that they really are saved, if they actually end up lost? Where would be the love in that position? |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: |
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| maria wrote: | I hear Johan Huibers (creationist) has built an ark
Schagan Netherlands |
Does that make him an unbeliever?
Gen. 9:11 I establish my covenant with you: Never again will all life be cut off by the waters of a flood; never again will there be a flood to destroy the earth.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 10:43 am Post subject: |
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| Paul wrote: | Of course, it is possible to be saved and have wrong ideas.
Out of your own mouth ...
However, when the truth of scripture is continually pointed out, and a person refuses to accept it, and to repent of their former position, there has to be something deeply spiritually wrong.
That is a divisive theological argument. People were burnt at the stake for not accepting the truth of Scriture that the church was built on Peter, & that the elements of the mass became the body & blood of Christ, etc.
There is basic saving truth - Christ, who is the Way the Truth & the Life, but there is plenty of scope for ignorance, much of which is dispelled after salvaton over a mater of a lifetime.
The important theological reasons for rejecting both evolutionism and old earth creationism have been rehearsed here many times. There comes a point where one has to say that the continued rejection of biblical truth becomes disobedience to God. A literal belief in the Bible is not necessary for salvation. It is, however, an obvious sign of salvation,
Theological reasons are not necessarily Biblical truth. The prophetic Scriptures are theologically argued both as literal truth, & as symbolic truth relating to the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus, beginning with his resurrection.
and if it is not present, then I have to say it is incumbent on us to question that salvation, not to be awkward, but out of concern for the individual concerned. What benefit is there in buttering someone up, and persuading them that they really are saved, if they actually end up lost? Where would be the love in that position?
How much of Scripture do we have to believe to be saved? Is, "I am a lost sinner, I repent of my sin & believe in Jesus Christ, Lord & God, who died to save me" enough?
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_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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| It's getting a bit personal here isn't it? |
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watcher
Joined: 19 Jan 2007
Posts: 60
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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Post deleted. (Once bitten...)
_________________
"For with Thee is the fountain of life;
In Thy light we see light."
- Psalm 36:9
Last edited by watcher on Sat May 05, 2007 5:56 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Talitha Tetelestai
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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It is getting very personal, here and on other threads.
Give it a break everyone, please, or this place will vanish in a puff of smoke,seriously. |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you suggesting that you will close the forum down? |
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Talitha Tetelestai
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| Posted: Sat May 05, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm saying that if it doesn't stop, either Anne will get so discouraged that she will just end all this, or the forum will implode in bitterness and recriminations.. IMO. |
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