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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: 2 Timothy 1:16-18 |
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"May the Lord show mercy to the household of Onesiphorus, because he often refreshed me and was not ashamed of my chains. On the contrary, when he was in Rome, he searched hard for me until he found me. May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day! You know very well in how many ways he helped me in Ephesus."
What is Paul praying for here?
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:00 am Post subject: |
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How do you mean.
Onesphorus had been a loyal supporter of Paul.
Paul is now calling for God's blessing on his household.
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:03 am Post subject: |
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And?
"May the Lord grant that he will find mercy from the Lord on that day!"
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Talitha Tetelestai
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| He's praying that Onsephorus,will,by faith in Christ,stand(be found worthy) on the day of judgement? |
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jtheb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:07 am Post subject: |
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We are told that we must all stand before the judgement seat of Christ.
For rewards etc.
I guess Paul wishes God to value Onesphorus works and forgive his failures.
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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Yes, I agree TT (edit: and JtheB).
So, why is Onsephorus referred to in the past tense, and why is special, and seperate, mention made to his household?
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jtheb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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It is often thought that he has died.
Just tradition I guess.
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Eddie c
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:32 am Post subject: |
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I think Theo is implying that Onsephorus is dead otherwise why send the greetings to his household. Truth is we dont know...he may have been on his travels.
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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| Eddie c wrote: | | I think Theo is implying that Onsephorus is dead otherwise why send the greetings to his household. Truth is we dont know...he may have been on his travels. |
Well he was on his travels, he'd died  An interpretation (a literal one) based on sending greetings to his household and referring to him in the past tense.
| JtheB wrote: | | Just tradition I guess. |
As all Scripture is.
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jtheb
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| Posted: Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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Is he referewd to in the past tense.
Paul only says that he had helped him in the past
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 9:37 am Post subject: |
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Seems a rather forced interpretation to me. I suppose both parties read into the verse what they've been taught extra-scripturally. So which teaching - praying for the dead or not praying for the dead - has the longest history?
I am of course talking about the history of Christian teaching and, before that, Jewish teaching.
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jtheb
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| Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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Apart from the Maccabees can you think of any other references to jewish practice?
I don't think that Paul is praying for Onesiphorus, just expressing his desire for him.
And I can think of no suggestion any where else that one can even remotely infer that praying to or for the dead took place.
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 11:59 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Apart from the Maccabees can you think of any other references to jewish practice? |
Well it's still practiced today too. Obviously that's not scriptural, but it's pretty solid evidence that this is a Jewish practice unless someone can provide an alternative source that the Jew's may have picked up on. I can't see the Jewish practice of praying for the dead being picked up from the Christian church in the Middle Ages, so when did it start? If no evidence of Jewish adoption of Pagan or Occult practices can be found then it's safe to assume they were praying for the dearly departed (a more accurate description, see below) since the time that Macabees was written at least. If nothing else, Maccabees is a historical record of Jewish practice (there were a number of sects within the Jewish faith of course; I can't imagine the Sadacucees praying for the dead)
| Quote: | | And I can think of no suggestion any where else that one can even remotely infer that praying to or for the dead took place. |
This ties in with the Angels and Saints thread. There's quite a lot of scripture that supports the idea that the saints in Heaven are not dead. Hence my use of "dearly departed" above. On the contrary, the saints in Heaven are more alive than we are. With this distinction in mind, we shouldn't expect any reference to "prayers for the dead." But the idea of not praying for the dearly departed would have seemed crazy to the early churches, IMO.
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Talitha Tetelestai
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:08 pm Post subject: |
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Theo, why would you even need to pray for the dearly departed?
Firstly their destiny is settled upon death, no one, nor any prayer can change that.
Secondly, those in Christ Jesus are with Him now, what can your prayer provide them with that He can't?
There are enough walking dead among the living who desperately need your prayers,for whom things can change,without exerting energy on those whose eternal destiny is set, for the good or the bad. |
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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I rather think we can pray for both. Please don't think that I don't pray for those on earth, or that I pray for them less because I also pray for those who've departed.
What does what I (and Maria) quote from Scripture about the saints in Heaven say about their ability (and will) to pray for us?
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Last edited by -theophilus- on Sat Apr 28, 2007 12:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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