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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
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 Posted: Sun Apr 22, 2007 10:47 pm Post subject: |
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I agree Bobby it does depend on how we view the bible, but I don't agree that it's my own orthodoxy if I believe in a literal fall according to Genesis.
I really can't get my head around where all these people came from, if as you say, some christians believe is was a general disobedience to God rather than one mans sin.
Any explanation where the population came from?
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 4:10 am Post subject: |
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| crystal wrote: | | I am not being pedantic but one of the big problems I have is how some people accept parts of the bible as true historical and accurate, where as other parts of the bible are accepted as just a story. |
You're right Crystal, you're not being pedantic: you're actually making massive generalizations (i.e. assuming that people can only believe the Bible is ALL allergory or ALL literal), which is the opposite of pedantry.
A bit of pedantry, or at least some discernment, might be needed! 
It might be worth mentioning that the prophecies of the OT, and the Revelation of St. John, are specifically described as something given directly by God to the author. Other history books (including the gospels) are written by the people present at the events described, or by people who interviewed witnesses. Neither of these things can be said about Genesis.
Nevertheless, I still maintain that debate on this issue is fruitless (and was not the intention of this thread anyway). There are questions of "how did sin enter the world" but if we are debating with Christians who understand their own sinfulness, and the need for a Saviour, and that salvation can only be found in Jesus Christ, then why exactly are we arguing about it? I've already mentioned why debate with non-believers is probably unproductive in most cases.
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:03 am Post subject: |
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www.kolbecenter.org
Many years ago raised as a Catholic in my school we were taught six days creation,how it was in other RC schools I dont know?I dont recall hearing much about evolution.Today Evolution is everywhere taught and this has caused so much confusion which has led some to disregard the Bible altogether,why bother? some say.Rebellion is everywhere.
Theo when I was asked to give a reading in the RCC for my Aunts funeral I read part of Romans 8.I also mentioned OT scriptures.The priest said "no-one will understand it"stay with the NT.When I quoted some OT Scriptures he asked me where in the Bible I was reading from,then said 'you know more about the Bible than I do' I don't and he was being a bit funny about it.He was a lovely man I really liked him we all did.What he said made me wonder though about people not understanding........
1 Cor: 15:12-45
Jesus always said 'It is written' 'have you not read' He always referred to Scriptures...........we should be like Him .
AIG have many articles why not look some up
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/WWWTLchapter2.asp
I have spoken with atheists and those who believe in evolution,AIG can give answers to their questions.You would be suprised how many will listen to this and then think about Creation.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is essential and most important ,and these ministries do preach Christ. |
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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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I agree Maria.
I have spoken with many people on this subject, and the overwhelming response of agnostics, atheists, or those who have been brought up in some sort of christian way but then given up, is that "science" has disproved the bible.
"Science" says we have billions of years, we started from who knows where, in some sort of soup, out of which came a life form that eventually turned into all of the creatures we have today.
The people groups I have described above (unless they follow another religion) on the whole believe that if the bible has been disproved in Genesis, then there is no point believing the rest.
It's very sad when this subject is seen as irrelevent. It is foundational.
God wrote about creation Himself, in His commandments. We have Gods word on this.
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Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:09 am Post subject: |
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What should be challenged is the belief that science could ever disprove the existance of God. Seeing as the one measures the physical, and the Other is essentially unknowable except where He chooses to reveal Himself, then this assumption is wrong.
Debating the scientific evidence that "proves" evolution is giving ground on this issue. Science cannot be used to investigate Heaven, only the Earth. They are mutually exclusive, but not diametrically opposed - and noone should say anything contrary. Otherwise we put ourselves in opposition to all science, which includes all the scientists throughout history who were God-fearing Christians.
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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:15 am Post subject: |
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It's a mistake to assume that we can just "spiritualise" everything we struggle with in scripture in the hope this will impress atheists enough to have a change of heart 
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:16 am Post subject: |
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Yes it is. That's why I don't do it.
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Elaine
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: |
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My thoughts precisely
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Janie
Joined: 13 Jul 2006
Posts: 736
Location: Essex of course....is there anywhere else ?
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: |
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Please forgive me for adding my tuppence worth to this thread (I normally steer well clear of the Lions Den) but I just wanted to add something.
I've been following the thread and taken note of all the arguments *for and against* creationism.
I have to admit there were times in the past (particularly when I was still in the RC church) that I doubted if the world could indeed be created in 6 literal days..then one day it came to me almost like a revelation......very simply put..it went something like this :
Ask anyone if it is feasible to part the Red sea and they would say *absolutely not, it can't be done* and yet as Christians we believe Moses did part the Red sea and the Israelites crossed out of Egypt.
Ask anyone if a Virgin, completely untouched by man could give birth to a baby and they will say *absolutely not..it's impossible without medical intervention* and yet as Christians we believe that a Virgin gave birth to our Lord Jesus Christ.
Ask anyone if it were possible for a man to die on a cross, be certified dead, be placed in a tomb, have that tomb sealed, be dead for three days then be raised from the dead on the third day to be seen by around 3000 people ?..and they would probably be deciding whether they should give those friendly blokes with the nice line in padded jackets a ring...and yet as Christians our whole faith is based on this truth....
so why therefore is it so difficult for anyone let alone professed Christians to believe that it would be impossible for the same God that created the whole Universe to not be able to bring this world into existence in 6 literal days ? It's so simple to me...I can't understand why others struggle with this .
Janie |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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Good post Janie.
The whole point of what I was saying at the start of the thread was not so much about creationism but about how christian beliefs are mocked on tv in a way that other faiths would not be. I would suggest that the person/s who wrote the script has done so from a position of bias rather than knowledge.
I do believe in creation but that is not the point that I was making it is how often does tv ridicule our faith? Many tv programmes show a token christian as a caricature. |
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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Many Muslims would reject evolution too so your comments on bias are fair. I would suppose it is to do with Christianity being the "native" religion of this country. Making fun of Islamic culture or religion would not resonate with as many people as the jokes levelled at Christianity do. Of course the reaction of a sizeable minority of Muslims to ridicule is a big factor too.
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Theo
It saddens me when I hear my grandchildren talk about evolution as a fact,then go on to talk about the Bible 'myths',
God is Almighy,all powerful.can do Whatever He wishes to do,Jesus miracles were instant.
My Grandson was ridiculing God one day and spoke about the Big bang and evolution,while I cant debate all the clever scientific stuff,I answered as best I could.One of his questions (dont recall now)prompted me to read about David and Goliath......he was riveted it blew him away.
In his RE test in school a question was asked about this............that blew him away even more.
So then he told me and asked about dragons.he likes Kimono dragons)spelling?) and I read something from Job I think,he then went of and told his mates in his 'gang'...........so it got them thinking and got them talking which is good.I then gave him a Bible .
Heavenly things are all important I agree and my experience was a personal revelation.
The Lord can work in any situation,can touch people in the most marvellous ways,I believe these Ministries are very helpful.
I knew a man,a sailor who had been into all kinds,you name it he did it,he told me one day he looked up at the sky and marvelled at the wonder of it all,it took his breath away,he began to ask 'what's it all about' ''How did it come about' 'why am here'? you know all those sorts of questions .He then met a girl who was an inactive JW she beagn to answer some of his questions from the Bible which he had never read.
They eventually married and he became a JW.They used to come to my house where a group Bible study was held every week.
I hope eventually he will be brought out of the JWS
I have many true stories like this
Theo how would you answer someone who was searching for answers to evolution? |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 1:20 pm Post subject: |
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| I had a Muslim boyfriend many years ago,he had alot of respect for Christians while still a believer in his religion.He also believed in creation. |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| crystal wrote: | | So if it is acceptable to take Genesis 1-11 as an allegory then why not take the whole of the bible as a story? |
On one level the whole of the bible is indeed a story, crystal. It's the story of how mankind is able to be reconciled to God. The reason why I don't take | Quote: | | the whole of the bible as a story |
in the sense I understand you to be using that phrase (i.e as a fiction) is because the bible isn't just one book it's a library of different books in various genres. Prophecy is not to be read as poetry because they are different styles of writing. You might as well ask if it's acceptable to believe that Kent is a cheese because Lancashire and Cheshire are.
Nige wrote (admittedly to theophilus) | Quote: | | Do non-Christians not need to know how sin entered the world? |
Maybe not. Isn't it sufficient to know that it did? As theo has himself pointed out, what is the likelihood of an unbeliever coming to faith because he is persuaded to believe in creationism? Does believing the literalness of the creation account impart salvation?
Nige also wrote | Quote: | | It seems to me that it is not Christians who believe what is said in the scriptures who are having the problem explaining how sin came into the world, it is those departing from what is written. |
Since I am the only person (I believe) who has posited an alternative to a literal interpretation of scripture I assume I am the one who is | Quote: | | departing from what is written |
in his view. If so it would be nice to be addressed directly rather than ignorantly referred to as an anonymous third party. The fact is though that I have had no trouble explaining how I understand sin to have come into the world and nor am I departing from what is written. If Nige's interpretation of what is written does not coincide with mine then that's his problem not mine.
Elaine, just by way of clarification. When I used the phrase "your own orthodoxy" in an earlier post I did not mean to imply that you held to your creationist viewpoint in any isolated or individual sense. I realise that you are not the only Christian who holds to a literal interpretation of scripture.
Last edited by bobbyc on Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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