Charismatic Gifts

bobbyc · Joined: 23 Sep 2006 Posts: 1324

On another thread Elaine wrote -

Elaine · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 1712 Location: Derbyshire

I'd be grateful if you would explain how the gifts of the Holy Spirit (as written in scripture) are "charismatic"?

(Before we go any further, I would like to say that I think there is a world of difference between "charismatic" and "charismania")
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-theophilus- · Joined: 24 Sep 2006 Posts: 562

Surely the gifts of the Spirit are charismatic by definition (charis, Greek, meaning gifts) Icon_1087

So the question should start with, what are the gifts of the Holy Spirit?
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keepingthefaith · Guest

The Word Charismatic was chosen by a person at one time who saw the Gifts should be made prominant in the Church thus the name Charismatic, all church names ie Charismatic, Brethren, Baptist, Roman Catholic, Church of England are all made from presumptions of man/men of how a Church should run, it is certainly not scriptural and not the Unity that God longs for.

-theophilus- · Joined: 24 Sep 2006 Posts: 562

Thank goodness I don't belong to any of those churches then.

Nevertheless, there is no need to jettison the word charismatic just because some johnny-come-latelys have started to use the word for themselves. As I said, we first need to establish what the gifts of the Spirit are.
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maria · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 527

I am not a cessationist,but do believe that there is abuse of gifts today by the likes of Hinn etc:There are some who chase after signs and wonders instead of God.

There are some who insist on the speaking in tongues.
There are mystical and New Age perversions around ,failed prophecies.
very 60s.

Romans 11:29.

Elaine · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 1712 Location: Derbyshire

This is why I think we need to establish just what is meant by "charismatic"
(hence the "")

If we are talking about original context that is completely different from todays understanding of the word.
_________________
God put me on this earth to do a number of things.
Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!!

Covenanter · Joined: 28 Aug 2006 Posts: 1446

We all have gifts given us by the Holy Spirit for our place & service in the church. These are described in detail in Romans 12 & Eph. 4.

Regarding the "miracle gifts" of 1 Cor. 12 & 14, Heb. 2:4 refers to such gifts as "Apostolic witness gifts" confirming the Gospel of our great salvation preached by those who heard the Lord. Why such gifts were also particularly manifest in Corinth but apparently not in other churches is a matter for conjecture.

There is little reason to accept the claims of today's charismatics as true Pentecostal gifts. I know that people have been healed of various illnesses, but very rarely are these miracles that even opponents to the Gospel cannot deny.

Let us seek the enduring gifts of service, not forgetting love. Then we will indeed continue in the Apostles' doctrine, etc.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21)

keepingthefaith · Guest

maria · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 527

Jacob Prasch says the doctrine of cessationism is foolish.
From the Vanguard:
"The false doctrine of cessationism,which says Romans 11:29, is wrong and God has revoked the gifts is the natural compliment of the error of replacementism or supercessionism which says Romans 11:29 is wrong and God has revoked His calling of Israel and The Jews.

Those who propound this wrong doctrine deny Holy Spirit Baptism.The Bible in fact does teach 'One faith,One Baptism,and we do indeed receive the Holy Spirit upon regeneration,But 1 Cor: 10:1-2 shows the one baptism is both water (immersion) and cloud (The shekinah or Spirit)Jesus breathed on the Apostles in John 20 and the Holy Spirit indwelt them.But He told them to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit to be outpoured.As one can be saved and indwelt by the Holy Spirit without yet being water baptised,one can be saved and indwelled by the Holy Spirit and not be Spirit Baptized.

While there is one baptism,there are many subsequent fillings )e.g;Acts 4:31)

maria · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 527

The error of traditional Pentecostalism is that too many made their own experience a template fpr everyone else's.Not all Pentecostals ,however believe the classical tongues doctrine -that it is the initial evidence of Spirit Baptism .Neither I nor the leaders of my Pentecostal denomination believe it although we certainly believe in a gift of tongues understood scripturally.The Elim Pentecostal denomination never believed it either.Very few Pentecostals of any persuasion have ever believed it is the determining sign of salvation.

maria · Joined: 17 Feb 2007 Posts: 527

The ex Pastor of the FIEC church where I have been for a few years has the gift of tongues he uses this privately.No-one in church speaks in tongues or does anything like the charasmatics do.I was told there have been problems in the past because of this.and many people left the church.

Talitha Tetelestai · Guest

Maria, I must have been unfortunate enough to run into all those that did then Icon_fing05

Paul · Joined: 26 Jun 2006 Posts: 50

The issue that cessationists have to cope with is twofold:

1. There is a biblical issue. If you prefer to tear out 1 Corinthians 12 to 14 from your Bibles, then that is up to you, but don't pretend you can reject the charisma AND still be a Bible-believing evangelical. (Theo is, of course, entirely correct - the word charismatic refers to gifts, so to tru to make a distinction between the word charismatic and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit is nonsense.

2. The second issue is experiential, but still requires biblical explanation. I have said this to a cessationist pastor to his face, and he couldn't answer. The issue is: God gave me the gift of prophecy, when He baptised me in the Holy Spirit. At a later date, He also gave me the gift of tongues. Now, those of you who believe that the gifts have ceased have to tell me to my face that I am (a) demonically deceived or (b) confused and mistaken. This is not my problem - it is only a problem for my cessationist friends. I can assure that I am neither - and it is at this point that my cessationist pastor friend struggled, because he couldn't make either accusation to my face.

I used the same sort of argument with a fellow pentecostal, who insisted that Baptism in the Holy Spirit is always accompanied by speaking in tongues. I had fifteen years after my Baptism in the Spirit when I didn't speak in tongues. Once again, I have no problem with this - it is only a problem for the friend, who insisted that all should have one particular gift.

Talitha Tetelestai · Guest

I'm not a cessationist.

I don't want to be a cessationist.

I do believe in the charismatic gifts.

What I don't believe is that every instance/manifestation that is touted as being the operation of the HS actually is(eg: making animal noises)

I've found that people think this makes me a cessationist, they cannot distinguish between the two positions.