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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:03 pm Post subject: |
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| jtheb wrote: | | Quote: | | Mind you bobbyc has never appeared on any other forum |
Are you saying that you do not/have not posted on other forum/s under another name? |
No I am not but you made reference to my posts "over the years". I am simply making the point that bobbyc has only ever posted here on KTF. That you think you know me with a different identity on any other forum(s) is something I am not prepared to confirm. My first post on here was made on 26 September last year just under eight months ago. That certainly isn't a period of some years. |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1449
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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I was. Refering to one of your other names.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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What occurs (or has occurred) elsewhere has no relevance to what I post here. Although my biggest reason for using a different name here to the one(s) I use elsewhere is not as valid as it was when I first joined I prefer to retain my 'anonymity'. Anyone who needs to know my pseudonym(s) has already been told.
I wasn't aware that any landmark figure was coming up but this is actually my 500th post.  |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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| Paul wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: | | Do you think everything in Gen. 1-3 is clear without interpretation? |
Yes, it is clear without interpretation. It is easy to understand - but hard to accept, for those who have unbiblical presuppositions. You need to clear out those presuppositions and start believing what the Bible says.
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Do you believe God created an evil snake in his "very good" creation; a snake with power to reason & speak, allowing it access to Eve ? Believe it as it stands, without pre- or post-suppositions, or interpretation, & God is the creator of evil.
Yes. I am a six day creationist, & have been for nearly 50 years.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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genea
Joined: 02 May 2007
Posts: 13
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| Posted: Sat May 26, 2007 9:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Covenanter wrote: | | Paul wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: | | Do you think everything in Gen. 1-3 is clear without interpretation? |
Yes, it is clear without interpretation. It is easy to understand - but hard to accept, for those who have unbiblical presuppositions. You need to clear out those presuppositions and start believing what the Bible says.
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Do you believe God created an evil snake in his "very good" creation; a snake with power to reason & speak, allowing it access to Eve ? Believe it as it stands, without pre- or post-suppositions, or interpretation, & God is the creator of evil.
Yes. I am a six day creationist, & have been for nearly 50 years. |
Cov....I'll bite ...come on I'm all ears.  |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| I think Cov's post does back up my own understanding of taking the Genesis account of creation symbolically/allegorically. To read it in the baldest and simplest of terms (i.e. literally and without any attempt at interpretation) you'd have to accept that God made a talking snake and that He made evil which was unleashed as a reality (not an abstract concept) when Eve ate the fruit. I'd be interested myself though to know how Cov squares an interpretative approach to the snake with his stated position of being a six day creationist. I have never before come across anyone who says the temptation needs an interpretation but the creation can be read literally. |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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| genea wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: | | Paul wrote: | | Covenanter wrote: | | Do you think everything in Gen. 1-3 is clear without interpretation? |
Yes, it is clear without interpretation. It is easy to understand - but hard to accept, for those who have unbiblical presuppositions. You need to clear out those presuppositions and start believing what the Bible says.
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Do you believe God created an evil snake in his "very good" creation; a snake with power to reason & speak, allowing it access to Eve ? Believe it as it stands, without pre- or post-suppositions, or interpretation, & God is the creator of evil.
Yes. I am a six day creationist, & have been for nearly 50 years. |
Cov....I'll bite ...come on I'm all ears. |
| Bobby wrote: |
I think Cov's post does back up my own understanding of taking the Genesis account of creation symbolically/allegorically. To read it in the baldest and simplest of terms (i.e. literally and without any attempt at interpretation) you'd have to accept that God made a talking snake and that He made evil which was unleashed as a reality (not an abstract concept) when Eve ate the fruit. I'd be interested myself though to know how Cov squares an interpretative approach to the snake with his stated position of being a six day creationist. I have never before come across anyone who says the temptation needs an interpretation but the creation can be read literally. |
I see the need to bring Scripture to bear on Scripture to give us an ever clearer understanding of what we read. I was challenging Paul, not justifying symbolical/allegorical interpretation.
Genesis 1 is the simple account of creation, as revealed by God. Genesis 2 gives specific details of the creation of man & woman. Man is seen to be a special creation by the breath of God, a living soul distinct from the animal creation. As a living soul, he was placed in a special relationship with his creator, & warned that that living relationship would end if he were disobedient.
We do not see the significance of the two special trees immediately. The tree of the knowledge of good & evil did not need to be harmful, nor to have special properties per se but eating it was an act of deliberate disobedience, aka sin. OTOH the tree of life would give special properties - eat it & live for ever - which in Genesis 3 would annul the curse without dealing with the sin. The references in Proverb are figurative - wisdom, fruit of the righteous, hope, a wholesome tongue. These are the the evidence of grace in a believer's life. If Adam & Eve had first eaten from the tree of life, or after eating the forbidden fruit, eaten from it, would the curse have been of no effect, so that they would have lived for ever on earth as sinners? That seems to be the implication, which needs interpretation.
The tree of life is seen in Paradise, & in the NH&NE in Revelation. Our salvation, our eternal life, centres on Christ, & in some way that tree of life is a type of Christ.
The tree of knowledge can be seen as a type of law - Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law [is] the knowledge of sin.
Deu 30:19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
We must read into the account the rebellion of Satan, his insinuation into a serpent or his disguise as such. God cannot be the author of sin, nor the creator of a sinful being.
We can see the significance of the creation account without seeing at as myth or allegory. But we need to see it in the light of further revelation.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Am I the only one who has read about satan being cast out of heaven? So why has no one thought that maybe satan was the one who tempted Eve and not a snake that God created? |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1324
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| Posted: Sun May 27, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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| Satan being cast out of heaven doesn't feature in Genesis 1 or 2 though. A serpent that talks to Eve does. Unless you are suggesting that Satan entered into (possessed) the serpent the question of why a talking beast is featured in a text that some purport to be historical fact has not been answered. Cov is appealing for 'scripture to interpret scripture' but the outcome of that is simply a circular reasoning. I agree that man (adam) is distinguished from the animal kingdom because of his/our relationship with God and I concur with Cov's point that eating of the tree of life would negate the consequence of the sin that happened with the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I also like the notion that the tree of life can be seen as a type of Christ whilst the tree of knowledge represents the law. In that case though, accepting that the trees are symbols of something they are (in reality) not surely points towards reading the rest of the story as allegory. |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| bobbyc wrote: | | Satan being cast out of heaven doesn't feature in Genesis 1 or 2 though. A serpent that talks to Eve does. Unless you are suggesting that Satan entered into (possessed) the serpent the question of why a talking beast is featured in a text that some purport to be historical fact has not been answered. Cov is appealing for 'scripture to interpret scripture' but the outcome of that is simply a circular reasoning. I agree that man (adam) is distinguished from the animal kingdom because of his/our relationship with God and I concur with Cov's point that eating of the tree of life would negate the consequence of the sin that happened with the eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I also like the notion that the tree of life can be seen as a type of Christ whilst the tree of knowledge represents the law. In that case though, accepting that the trees are symbols of something they are (in reality) not surely points towards reading the rest of the story as allegory. |
Sorry to be so long in replying.
The interpretation that the trees are symbolic does not mean that the account is allegorical. We do not doubt the construction of the tabernacle & temple, yet they have their significance in Christ & his church. The symbolic significance is made clear as God's revelation continues, until it is perfected in Christ.
We have pictures of the rise of Satan in Isaiah 14 & Ezekiel 28, where the kings of Babylon & Tyre are described in terms that no human king can pretend to.
We must read the Old Covenant Scriptures in the light of New Covenant revelation. What do we make of Psalm 22 or Isaiah 53 apart from the cross? What do we make of the promise to David 16 Your house and your kingdom shall endure for ever before me; your throne shall be established for ever;' apart from the incarnation? The Davidic kingdom lasted around 400 years.
Such reasoning does not annul literal truth, but requires us to see the spiritual significance of literal events. We do need to interpret Scripture, in the light of ongoing revelation. And that revelation ceased with the demise of the Apostles.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:43 am Post subject: |
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Paul, Paul Taylor is coming to a church near us today, Teddington Free C of E, representing "Answers in Genesis" so perhaps I will get answers to my questions.
We have belief in 6 day creation in common, but we have some serious disagreements on interpretation principles.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Paul spoke very clearly - well worth hearing - & finished with a clear Gospel message.
There was no opportunity for questions.
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May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
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