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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| davelarge wrote: | | I just want you to be honest about the implications of what you're saying. |
The one thing I'm not saying is who is or not saved. Yes, I'm saying that the visible Church is the Orthodox Church and that the others are not. The Church would only be exclusive if it barred anyone from entry, which it doesn't. It really isn't exclusive to point out that people who are not members of the club are, in fact, non-members.
The reason you think I'm being exclusive is that you have a different interpretation of what the Church is. Would it be exclusive for you to say that Christadelphians are not Christian? After all, they call themselves followers of Christ too.
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davelarge
Joined: 13 Jul 2007
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:24 pm Post subject: |
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| -theophilus- wrote: | | The reason you think I'm being exclusive is that you have a different interpretation of what the Church is. Would it be exclusive for you to say that Christadelphians are not Christian? After all, they call themselves followers of Christ too. |
I'd like to think that I wouldn't make that kind of statement at all. Whether or not someone is a Christian is between that individual and God. There may well be people who attend churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and anywhere else who are Christian. There will be people who attend church who are not. I don't know which category any individual fits into, and I won't know this side of the pearly gates. (Actually, for that matter I could die and find out the whole idea of God and religion was bonkers from the start.)
Fundamentally, God is too big for my brain to comprehend, and while there are certain verses in the Bible that emphasise the need for a confession of faith in Jesus, I would find it hard to say categorically that there is no other way to God. It might be that only people who go to 'bible-believing' churches, or Orthodox churches, or any other place of worship are the ones who are actually Christian. On the other hand, it may be that in God's eyes, the definition of Christian is much wider than we would like to think. I just don't know, which is why I don't want to start making judgements about individuals.
davelarge
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Theophilus wrote: | | The one thing I'm not saying is who is or not saved |
I am, however, saying what is and what isn't the visible Church. If you believe that all the "Church" are definitely saved then it is certainly true that we have different definitions of Church, as I suggested earlier.
In addition, I don't believe the Church is some sort of organization that makes it more convenient for God to choose Who He will save. It is an organization that makes it more convenient for humans to come to God. (that's why it should be visible). Therefore your comments on the incomprehensibility of God are unwarranted.
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davelarge
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, I had been using the word 'Church' to mean the world-wide collection of all people who are Christian. I'll accept that we've been using the word at cross-purposes, but perhaps you could give me a specific definition of what 'Church' means in the way that you use it?
And while we're at it, maybe some of the more western-minded people could tell me if my definition of 'Church' is off-base in their understanding.
Thanks.
davelarge
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-theophilus-
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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I believe the Church should be One, Holy, Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic. As holy means "set-apart" I do think it is very important that the Church is visible. If we take the church to mean all those who have put their faith in Christ and will, in the end, go to Heaven then it is impossible to define. We are still human, and what is tangible is important for us. That is why I believe the Church needs to be visible, so that she can draw people to Christ, and so to salvation. As I said before, the Church is for people, not for God. Not all who are drawn will stay to the end, the "perfect" example being Judas, who was one of the 12, and therefore a Bishop in the Orthodox (and Catholic) view.
So, I believe the Orthodox church to be the Church because I see her as One, Holy, Universal and Apostolic. The other churches miss one or more of these four marks in my opinion.
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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IMO it depends on what you mean by visible.
INO everyone who is a beliver in the Death and Rising again of Jesus is a christian.
That they meet together in fellowship makes most of them visible.
As has been said some who meet don't believe and so are are not in my definition christains. The separation is God's business not mine.
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davelarge
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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-theophilus-, thanks for that clarification.
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