Home | Forum | Arcade
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
But how many take their faith seriously these days?
I mean a lot of them have left their faith like some Christians have
I was speaking to a devout Muslim who is against all materialism ,also against Christmas etc:He was very works centered you know give to the poor and needy etc:
Another one who did not practice his faith at all,in fact when 9/11 happened he came out against this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1448
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
That would be my understanding Bobby.
I had not realised that there was Holocaust denial normally in Islam.
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
The denial and the concept goes back to the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who in the second world war was in big cahoots with Hitler and new what was happening at that time to the Jewish people, but then at that time so were other religious churches who were in cahoots with Hitler
most Nations at one time or another turned their back on the Jewish people and caused them unbelievable grief including our own.
But there was a meeting of the Arab League of Nations recently and Iran put forward that there had been no Holocaust, but no matter Condy Rice they say this morning is maybe going to meet the Iranian representive shortly she might change there hearts and minds  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 7:52 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Grand Mufti, of course, was not a holocaust denier -- he was very much in favour as Anne said. He consulted with Hitler on numerous occasions to discuss ways in which he could help with the "Jewish problem" in his own area of influence. Look-up the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem on Wikipedia for the details.
| keepingthefaith wrote: | | but then at that time so were other religious churches who were in cahoots with Hitler |
Do you have any examples in mind?
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
One that comes to mind was the Pope at that time was in cahoots with Hitler regarding Finance Gold money mainly from the Jewish people and they had big ties concerning this but it is no secret and I believe the last Pope tried to apologise for all the pain caused to the Jewish people by the Catholic church. but one man cannot refute an other mans sin or indeed can he as a person bear the burden of the sins of others only God can and has done this.
Judgement itself will sort it all out. I think the last Pope was one of the best the RC church has ever had. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
The last Bishop of Rome was an ecumenicist. As for the man who occupied the Papal Throne during the Second World War, his actions saved the lives of thousands of Jews. Please read the following articel, especially the highlighted parts:
| Quote: | While the armchair quarterbacks of anti-Catholic circles may have wished the Pope to issue, in Axis territory and during wartime, ringing, propagandistic statements against the Nazis, the Pope realized that such was not an option if he were actually to save Jewish lives rather than simply mug for the cameras.
The desire to keep a low profile was expressed by the people Pius XII helped. A Jewish couple from Berlin who had been held in concentration camps but escaped to Spain with the help of Pius XII, stated: "None of us wanted the Pope to take an open stand. We were all fugitives, and fugitives do not wish to be pointed at. The Gestapo would have become more excited and would have intensified its inquisitions. If the Pope had protested, Rome would have become the center of attention. It was better that the Pope said nothing. We all shared this opinion at the time, and this is still our conviction today."
While the U.S., Great Britain, and other countries often refused to allow Jewish refugees to immigrate during the war, the Vatican was issuing tens of thousands of false documents to allow Jews to pass secretly as Christians so they could escape the Nazis. What is more, the financial aid Pius XII helped provide the Jews was very real. Lichten, Lapide, and other Jewish chroniclers record those funds as being in the millions of dollars—dollars even more valuable then than they are now.
In late 1943, Mussolini, who had been at odds with the papacy all through his tenure, was removed from power by the Italians, but Hitler, fearing Italy would negotiate a separate peace with the Allies, invaded, took control, and set up Mussolini again as a puppet ruler. It was in this hour, when the Jews of Rome themselves were threatened—those whom the Pope had the most direct ability to help—that Pius XII really showed his mettle.
Joseph Lichten records that on September 27, 1943, one of the Nazi commanders demanded of the Jewish community in Rome payment of one hundred pounds of gold within thirty-six hours or three hundred Jews would be taken prisoner. When the Jewish Community Council was only able to gather only seventy pounds of gold, they turned to the Vatican.
"In his memoirs, the then Chief Rabbi Zolli of Rome writes that he was sent to the Vatican, where arrangements had already been made to receive him as an ‘engineer’ called to survey a construction problem so that the Gestapo on watch at the Vatican would not bar his entry. He was met by the Vatican treasurer and secretary of state, who told him that the Holy Father himself had given orders for the deficit to be filled with gold vessels taken from the Treasury."
Pius XII also took a public stance concerning the Jews of Italy: "The Pope spoke out strongly in their defense with the first mass arrests of Jews in 1943, and L’Osservatore Romano carried an article protesting the internment of Jews and the confiscation of their property. The Fascist press came to call the Vatican paper ‘a mouthpiece of the Jews.’ "
Prior to the Nazi invasion, the Pope had been working hard to get Jews out of Italy by emigration; he now was forced to turn his attention to finding them hiding places. "The Pope sent out the order that religious buildings were to give refuge to Jews, even at the price of great personal sacrifice on the part of their occupants; he released monasteries and convents from the cloister rule forbidding entry into these religious houses to all but a few specified outsiders, so that they could be used as hiding places. Thousands of Jews—the figures run from 4,000 to 7,000—were hidden, fed, clothed, and bedded in the 180 known places of refuge in Vatican City, churches and basilicas, Church administrative buildings, and parish houses. Unknown numbers of Jews were sheltered in Castel Gandolfo, the site of the Pope’s summer residence, private homes, hospitals, and nursing institutions; and the Pope took personal responsibility for the care of the children of Jews deported from Italy."
Rabbi Lapide records that "in Rome we saw a list of 155 convents and monasteries—Italian, French, Spanish, English, American, and also German—mostly extraterritorial property of the Vatican . . . which sheltered throughout the German occupation some 5,000 Jews in Rome. No less than 3,000 Jews found refuge at one time at the Pope’s summer residence at Castel Gandolfo; sixty lived for nine months at the Jesuit Gregorian University, and half a dozen slept in the cellar of the Pontifical Bible Institute."
Notice in particular that the Pope was not merely allowing Jews to be hidden in different church buildings around Rome. He was hiding them in the Vatican itself and in his own summer home, Castel Gandolfo. His success in protecting Italian Jews against the Nazis was remarkable. Lichten records that after the War was over it was determined that only 8,000 Jews were taken from Italy by the Nazis —far less than in other European countries. In June,1944, Pius XII sent a telegram to Admiral Miklos Horthy, the ruler of Hungary, and was able to halt the planned deportation of 800,000 Jews from that country.
The Pope’s efforts did not go unrecognized by Jewish authorities, even during the War. The Chief Rabbi of Jerusalem, Isaac Herzog, sent the Pope a personal message of thanks on February 28, 1944, in which he said: "The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for us unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is living proof of divine Providence in this world."
Other Jewish leaders chimed in also. Rabbi Safran of Bucharest, Romania, sent a note of thanks to the papal nuncio on April 7, 1944: "It is not easy for us to find the right words to express the warmth and consolation we experienced because of the concern of the supreme pontiff, who offered a large sum to relieve the sufferings of deported Jews. . . . The Jews of Romania will never forget these facts of historic importance."
The Chief Rabbi of Rome, Israel Zolli, also made a statement of thanks: "What the Vatican did will be indelibly and eternally engraved in our hearts. . . . Priests and even high prelates did things that will forever be an honor to Catholicism." |
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:16 am Post subject: |
|
|
I am not going to get into a tit for tat regarding Rome and it's dealings but maybe Pope John Paul shoudn't have bothered to apologise then seeing Rome had done so much good for the Jewish people.
As for the Quote I'm sure it is the case if it says so. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
|
|
I think Pope John Paul II apologized for the behaviour of the Roman church towards the Jews at various times throughout history (notably some of the pogroms of the Middle Ages) rather than the Holocaust - which the Vatican had no responsibility for.
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 10:31 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Theo,
It's good to know the other side of the story,
I wonder if the Protestants also publically apologised for all their terrible deeds of the past.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/poperep.html
During the war my Father was shot in the leg.a RC priest was assisting him and many others. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1448
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 1:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The protestants are not so monolithic so it is harder to identify their abuse.
I am sure that some have apologised but "everyman shall bear his own burdens"
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:25 pm Post subject: |
|
|
JTHb
I don't know about that,since I have been searching I am finding loads more info.
They have both made serious mistakes. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1448
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
What is it that you are unsure of?
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
|
| Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2007 9:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Lost myself here JThb? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
