| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
|
 Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:01 am Post subject: |
 |
|
I am rather sceptical of saying because it is the practice it must be right.
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
| -theophilus- wrote: | | keepingthefaith wrote: | | Why should a Saint interceed for us when Christ who is in Heaven and is all knowing and omnipitent need a Saint to tell Him about our problems? |
Then what is the point of the prayer forum on this forum? Do you see it as merely a social thing, or do you believe that if you pray for others it will have some effect, regardless of whether you leave a message there or not? |
You nver looked at my answer properly Theo
Christ in heaven
Saints in heaven
So prayer is not needed they are in Gods presence
So then, why pray to Saints when I have a direct line to the omnipitant God who knows the very numbers of the hair on my head....or is that not to be taken literal either.
End of my prayers eg:
We ask these things Through (the direct line) the name of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,(MY Great High Priest) we ask these things.
I have no other 
If there is another (Icon, Idol, Rosary, Mary) it stands infront of a direct line to my GREAT High Priest.
(I the Lord thy God am a jealous God
No other Idols, icons, mary, stand infront/before me.
It blocks the direct line.
Last edited by keepingthefaith on Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:36 am; edited 3 times in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Anne,
But your reply begs the question: "why ask anyone to pray for you?" And why pray for anyone else?
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Talitha Tetelestai
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:35 am Post subject: |
|
|
Those still resident on earth have not yet reached heaven, their destinies can change either way, they are still beset by the problems of this world, therefore they require prayer.
Those now in heavem have need of nothing,they are complete and have been perfected in Christ Jesus,the bible neither indicates that they require prayer (why would they, since they are the aforementioned?) nor that they can pray for those who have not yet joined them, though it apperas to indicate they can see us running our race.
Theo, you really are flogging a dead horse with no scriptural evidence.
It may be a beloved practice in some sections of the church, but you cannot justify it with scripture,which is autoritative over practice and tradition. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| -theophilus- wrote: | Anne,
But your reply begs the question: "why ask anyone to pray for you?" And why pray for anyone else? |
Because the Christian people who pray for me pray directly to their Great High Priest (Jesus Christ Himself)
see my previous edited post |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:45 am Post subject: |
|
|
| keepingthefaith wrote: | | Because the Christian people who pray for me pray directly to their Great High Priest (Jesus Christ Himself) |
So do the Christian people in Heaven. They also pray directly to Christ Himself. So the question still stands: why make the distinction between saints on earth and saints in Heaven praying for you?
_________________
ICXC NIKA!
Last edited by -theophilus- on Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Talitha Tetelestai wrote: | | Theo, you really are flogging a dead horse with no scriptural evidence. |
Interesting choice of words!
I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the saints in Heaven are alive, and more alive than we are. Why this would mean they only passively watch us, rather than actively help us in our Christian walk (as we do to each other on Earth) hasn't been made clear by you.
It needs scriptural evidence from you that the saints in Heaven don't pray for Christian brothers and sisters - seeing as it is certainly something they did on earth.
So why (with scriptural support) would the saints in Heaven not pray (to God) for us?
1. They're not able?
2. They don't want to?
3. They're not allowed to? (Why?)
4. Or something else..?
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Perhaps JtheB or Helena can help, but is the word "witness" used in the original Greek the same word that is translated as "martyrs" elsewhere? Witness does not mean that they are merely observers. |
Sorry I had overlooked this.
martus
a witness; (1) as a witness to ascertainable facts; (a)
legally (MT 26.65); (b) gener., as one who testifies to something (RO 1.9); (2) as one who declares facts directly known to himself; (a) fr. firsthand knowledge (AC 1.22); (b) fr. firsthand experience (HE 12.1); (3) as one who tells what he believes, even though it results in his being killed for it witness, martyr (AC 1.8; RV 17.6).
It does not seem to mean observers rather I would think examples or proclaimers of the facts known to them.
Helena is insistant that matrus is not translated martyr in the best translations. i.e. the most recent based on the most reliable manuscripts.
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:22 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | Quote:
So what about a saint in Heaven's ability (and wish) to pray for us? Do either or both of these exist?
If they know about our everyday matters and wish to take time from their God given activities then it is possible.
No evidence either way so it must remain an open question. |
Case unproven. And probably unprovable.
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:42 am Post subject: |
|
|
Thank you for the "witness" translation. So the saints who surround us are not necessarily just "watchers", but have the ability (and probably the will) to intercede on our behalf.
| Quote: | | Case unproven. And probably unprovable. |
I did mention the 2000 years of practice. It might be worth mentioning that the practice of not asking for intercession, and denouncing the practice, is considerably newer. Seeing as Scripture cannot change, it means that the interpretation of it has instead. That I am wary of.
There is also the lack of condemnation in Scripture. Any attempts to contact the deceased that are condemned are in the OT. The location of OT saints was not Heaven, or so most of the posters here seem to believe. Therefore we have to look extra-scripturally to the history of the practice. I think there we can see it is intrinsically Christian and Jewish practice.
As to the "benefits" or efficacy of asking for intercession, that is attested to by many, mnay, personal experiences of Christians through the ages. I appreciate this experience will not have been shared by most people here.
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
|
| Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:47 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Thank you for the "witness" translation. So the saints who surround us are not necessarily just "watchers", but have the ability (and probably the will) to intercede on our behalf. |
That isn't what I said, nor to be derived from my comments.
As to the rest of your posting, we are on different frequencies and I will leave the thread as mutual agreement is very unlikely.
_________________
The effectiveness of a posting is inversely proportional to its length.
C.S.Craig |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Mon May 07, 2007 8:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
| -theophilus- wrote: |
I think there is more than enough evidence to suggest that the saints in Heaven are alive, and more alive than we are. Why this would mean they only passively watch us, rather than actively help us in our Christian walk (as we do to each other on Earth) hasn't been made clear by you.
It needs scriptural evidence from you that the saints in Heaven don't pray for Christian brothers and sisters - seeing as it is certainly something they did on earth.
So why (with scriptural support) would the saints in Heaven not pray (to God) for us?
1. They're not able?
2. They don't want to?
3. They're not allowed to? (Why?)
4. Or something else..? |
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Tue May 08, 2007 12:06 am Post subject: |
|
|
The approach you mention is spiritually dangerous (I think "spiritually dangerous" is a bit OTT) but that is not what I have done.
There is plenty of scriptural evidence that the saints in Heaven are alive, and more alive than we are too (in Heaven they see face to face). What, therefore, makes you think they don't pray for us? Methinks there is nothing except the man-made teachings that came about post-Reformation; before which the prayers of the saints in Heaven were universally thought to support the world. Or perhaps the teachings of the Saducees? In any case, it's not Christian - not authentically or anciently Christian, IMO.
What the Lord said to Joshua was very pertinent pre-Incarnation. We are not under Mosaic Law now, my shell-fish eating, mixed-fibre wearing chum. Were did the OT prophets go when they died? Where are they now?
I really think the onus is still on you.
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
|
| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I notice you've been online M.C Nige (two days in a row) but not replied. If you're busy I understand, just hope that you managed to see my own post. I wouldn't want you to think that I would not answer or even acknowledge points raised in reply to my posts.
_________________
ICXC NIKA! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed May 09, 2007 2:32 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Nige has left this forum he won't be answering you Theo....sorry |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
