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crystal
Joined: 04 Apr 2007
Posts: 308
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 Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:29 pm Post subject: |
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Bobby is that the best you can do?
So what you are saying is that as far as you are concerned some books of the bible are literally true and others are not?
So how do you differentiate between them, ie on what basis do you authorise some books as true and others as just nice stories? Has God given you a special revelation? |
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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
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I don't think Nige was meaning you Bobby, rather any Christian who does not believe a literal Genesis.
But this is interesting,
| Quote: | | If Nige's interpretation of what is written does not coincide with mine then that's his problem not mine. |
I assume by "what is written", you mean in Genesis regarding creation?
If this is the case then this is where the problem lies. Indeed it really annoys me when having conversations with non-literalist (re; creation).
As far as I am aware, Nige's belief in Genesis is Literal, it is not an interpretation. Only those choosing to believe differently to what Genesis actually says is making (their own) interpretation.
I have had this discussion hundreds (at least it feels like hundreds) of times, and always the same point is made.
Those who have an interpretive belief in an allegorical Genesis seem to always make the mistake of a literal belief being an interpratation too 
Anyway, that aside, I did ask a question earlier in the discussion. That is if there was no literal Adam or fall, but sin comes from a general disobedience of mankind, then where did all these people come from?
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1363
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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Crystal, you make it sound as though I'm the only person to think the way I do about the bible. I'm not. As for it being the best I can do I think it's better than the unthinking literalism that seems to be being advocated as the only alternative. How do I know how to differentiate the various books? According to what genre they are. I already said that though. Were you not paying attention?
Elaine, I believe I already answered your question about population. Adam in Hebrew means man in a general sense. Mankind in other words. Incidentally please explain what you mean by this statement - | Quote: | | Those who have an interpretive belief in an allegorical Genesis seem to always make the mistake of a literal belief being an interpratation too |
Both viewpoints are interpretations because they are both understandings of the text. You choose to read the opening chapters of Genesis as literal I choose to read them as allegory. Both of us are interpreting the text but it's just that we do so differently. A crucial difference though is that you are focussing on the English translation whilst I look to discover the original Hebrew or Greek in which the scriptures were originally written. Word for word translations are notoriously difficult at any time and bible translation is no different. There is a phrase in French - Le spirit d'escalier. Literally it translates into English as the spirit of the staircase but it's used to describe that moment when you only think of the witty retort you could have made (and wished you had) when you are on your way down the stairs going away from the situation. Take a look at this too. http://englishbibles.blogspot.com/2006/10/whats-joke.html |
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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Bobby, interpretation and translation are different.
Anyone opening a bible (at least a decent translation, not a paraphrase) and reading the passage as written and in context of the whole, is not interpreting.
Like I said, I have had this very discussion many, many times. It tends to be those who choose to interpret scripture to their own understanding that say as you have.
A literal understanding and belief is just that.
That aside, just saying that Adam means men, does not explain where the population came from.
Neither does and allegorical interpretation of Genesis.
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Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 8:39 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | NRS 1 Corinthians 15:22 for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in
Christ.
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Obviously Jesus is only a sample person as Adam is just a sample man.
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1363
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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I really wish this forum had the 'banging head against a wall smiley' that I've seen elsewhere. Elaine you have just proved me right about you not accepting anything other than what you percieve to be orthodoxy. In spite of all my efforts to explain my position as clearly as possible your mind is closed to anything but a literalist approach.
I reiterate my earlier statement that when you read the text literally you are indeed choosing to interpret the words in the most literal of senses. The irony is that although you claim that Genesis is to be read literally I don't think you will be quite so consistently literal with other parts of the bible. Consider, for example, Psalm 23. Is the Lord literally a shepherd or is that an illustration of how he acts towards us? Are we physically conforted by a rod and staff? Do we really lie down in green pastures? Is there a literal banqueting table laid out in front of our enemies? Is the house of the Lord only in Derby (or is it Swadlincote?)?
Crystal asked me earlier how I worked out which bits of the bible to believe literally and which to believe more figuratively or symbolically but I think a better question is how do literalists solve the problem of (not) taking passages like Psalm 23 literally? If you argue that the psalms are hymns or poems which may invoke poetic licence then you betray your literalist principles which claim that the words of scripture are to be read in their literal sense. If literalists are free to see some passages as poetry why are nonliteralists criticised for doing exactly the same thing? |
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bobbyc
Joined: 23 Sep 2006
Posts: 1363
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Nige, where have I mentioned a belief in evolution? Or are you just adopting a scattergun approach and hitting as many targets as possible? |
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Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
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| Posted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:47 pm Post subject: |
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Bobby, I seriously think it's time you grew up.
You have skirted around the questions you either don't want to answer, or maybe even can't answer.
Do you seriously expect me to take you seriously?
You still refuse to answer the question of where the population that originally disobeyed God came from. You must know the answer, you seem to have the answer to everything else.
You are right about one thing though. We do need a head-banging-wall emoticon, but for now this will have to surfice 
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Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| maria wrote: | | Theo how would you answer someone who was searching for answers to evolution? |
No such person exists Maria. In the example you gave with your son, evolution was being used as a means to disprove God. Inroads were made when you changed the subject to something more important (as you yourself admitted that debating on the science wouldn't get you very far). That is exactly my point.
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: |
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| M.C.Nige wrote: | | Do non-Christians not need to know how sin entered the world? |
They only need to know that sin enters the world through their own hand, and that on this sin they will be judged, and condemned. They then need to know that only through the way of Christ can their sinful self be transformed into His likeness. There is no need for explainations, because the real, concrete examples of this promise lie in the history of the lives of the saints. Sin is in the world, through Christ they are transformed. No other religion or confession of faith comes even close to this. And the examples, as I said, can be seen through the history of the Church.
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Last edited by -theophilus- on Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:37 am Post subject: |
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So much excellent content Theo.
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Last edited by jtheb on Tue Apr 24, 2007 7:43 am; edited 1 time in total |
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-theophilus-
Joined: 24 Sep 2006
Posts: 562
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:44 am Post subject: |
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I think it (was) a relevant point. Anyway, I've removed it now.
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jtheb
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1451
Location: second childhood
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 6:52 am Post subject: |
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Thanks!
I have also edited.
Eirene!!!!!!!!!!
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Theo
I always look for inroads to preach Christ.
Some people need scientific answers,they want to discuss evolution/creation,I would be unable to debate scientifically,but here is where these ministries come in for they are able to do this.It may be that whoever they are debating may not be interested or agree right away,but who knows what seeds are being sown?
Speaking in a pub to someone he mentioned Richard Dawkins,I didn't know who he was,I mentioned God,he only wanted Science and wanted to debate this ,He said I could only do this if I use the Bible,and he was right,he didn't want the Bible answers,so again these ministries are helping people like him.I believe there are testimonies of people who have been converted this way. |
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maria
Joined: 17 Feb 2007
Posts: 527
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| Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:11 pm Post subject: |
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A book I recommended to a Budhist who also has cancer is
Walking through Shadows
Ken Ham Carl Wieland .
Matter was the only reality for Carl, there was no supernatural He could explain everything by the laws of physics and chemistry He is now a Christian and lecturer for AIG. |
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