Home | Forum | Arcade
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
|
 Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
| bobbyc wrote: | | Elaine wrote: | And how do you know that the creation account is allergorical? Who says?
At what point does Genesis become History? Anything but Creation?
Or perhaps after the flood?
Maybe even Abraham is just a myth or legend?
And more to the point, try answering my questions of your views from a biblical stance. And, no I will not accept "Jesus told parables" as reasoning.
|
I don't know the creation account is allegorical any more than you know it's literal Elaine but the style in which any part of scripture is written ought to suggest how it is read. If you can look at it objectively and without any prejudged choice you should be able to see (even in English translations) that Genesis 1 to 11 has a much wider and more general focus. It is only with the arrival of Abraham into the OT narrative that the style of Genesis alters substantially. However, your final point suggests that you are unwilling to listen in any case having already decided that you will only accept arguments on your own terms. |
Sorry Bobby I don't accept that at all 
There are many bible scolars who would agree with me that the whole of Genesis is written as history.
We make the choice. Not them. They make their choice. You make yours. I make mine. I believe what is written.
_________________
God put me on this earth to do a number of things.
Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 2142
Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:26 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | I do believe Genesis is literal I am afraid.
If it is not then there is no explanation for how sin and death entered the world etc.. |
I won't speak for Bobby now TT but only myself. There is nothing false in Genesis, for me, the area that cannot be taken as literal is the six days. The description of creation in six literal days is being told several thousands of years ago to people of several thousands of years ago with the attendant understandings that would go with a person in that position. It was couched to fit the time. For later understanding the scriptures make us aware that a thousand years is like a day and a day is as a thousand years with God.
| Quote: | You (or anyone else using the "allegory" theory) still haven't given an answer as to where you get this information from.
And, no I will not accept "Jesus told parables" as reasoning. |
First, it's not a theory, allegory is a fact, look in the dictionary for goodness sake. The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe was supposedly an allegory of Christs death and resurection, it's not a theory.
Nobody on this thread has said anything about parables, however, Jesus did use allegory whether you accept it or not doesn't make it not so. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, and Jesus all used allegory in there writings and sayings, and as I say, whether you accept that or not doesn't make it any less so.
| Quote: | | If you want it to get personal, then chose another target. This one is bored with having to defend their belief in creation to "the elite". |
You say your comments are general whereas mine are directed at you, and then you say I am elitist... And, I nor nobody else is asking you to defend your beliefs on creation, in fact you came in on the thread to basically say we were wrong, you were noit defending your beliefs but attacking Bobbys and mine.
| Quote: | | However, your final point suggests that you are unwilling to listen in any case having already decided that you will only accept arguments on your own terms. |
I believe Bobby is correct here, your mind is closed. If you will not even look at the scripture, go to Gal 4:24 where Paul tells you that the scripture he is talking about is an allegory. If you won't even believe Paul THE Apostle, then what chance have any of us in showing you that allegory isn't a theory that we have picked up somewhere for our convenience.
You will have to be consistent in your arguments Elaine, you cannot say on the one hand you believe all scripture to be literal and fact then tell me you won't believe the scriptures.....
_________________
".... love thy neighbour as thyself." is the hardest thing I have ever done.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Talitha Tetelestai
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:30 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Why can't the six days be literal Sis?
God could create it all in six seconds if He so chose,so whats the problem? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 2142
Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:35 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi Nige, thanks for your input. You however have made the same mistake. Nobody, anywhere, said Genesis was not fact or that Genesis was all allegory. This is part of the problem with these discussions on forums, everybody reads what they want see and not what is actually there.
What was said was that the creation story was more allegory than literal, so that's 25 verses I am talking about here, and as far as I can recollect, nobody made comment on other than those first 25 verses.
_________________
".... love thy neighbour as thyself." is the hardest thing I have ever done.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 2142
Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Talitha Tetelestai wrote: | Why can't the six days be literal Sis?
God could create it all in six seconds if He so chose,so whats the problem? |
No problem. Or six million if he so chose too, I can never be accused of limiting the power of God. As Bobby just said, I can't say that the six days are not literal any more than I can say they are, I don't know, I can only use the wits God gave me to reason and discern for myself, and my reason says it is likely to have been an allegory put together by the ancient teachers, 'who knew their audience', of an incredibly complex concept.
Don't forget we are not looking at the story in the same way as the first peoples, we are approaching it with our accumulated knowledge of our lifetimes, somewhat more sophisticated and educated than the original recipients of the story. And, as I've said before, we are given information later in scripture that helps us understand that the timescale of six days is not necessarily literally six, 24-hour days.
/edit
I have just read the last part of Niges post, which pretty much warns about the reasoning I just offered in my last paragraph. Nige thinks this is an argument that non-Christians use on Christian forums and should be avoided at all costs. I don't need non-Christians to do my reasoning or arguing for me.
_________________
".... love thy neighbour as thyself." is the hardest thing I have ever done.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've just been catching up with recent posts.
Sys, I think Nige explains why we can't say "this was written xxxx years ago, and we have more knowledge now" (sorry, bad paraphrase) If anything our accumulated knowledge gets in the way. It is no different than saying we know better now
Whether CS Lewis wrote The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe as an allegory (or not) is irrelevent. The story is still fiction.
Even if the parables Jesus told where as an allegory, it was the explanation that was fact, not the actual stories.
It is the seeing of Genesis1-25 as an allegory that is the theory, I did not mean that "allegory"="theory". 
I have just been reading through the geneology of Jesus in both Matthew and Luke (both of whom were educated men). It is acceptable to believe that Mary would have had a similar geneology to Joseph (as was the practise then). Both Matthew and Luke have a detailed geneology going back to Abraham. Luke goes further than this. His goes back to Adam.
Luke would have had access to this geneology before the destruction of the temple in 70AD (according to several scholars of St.Johns theological college that I know) so, therefore, we should be able to trust this geneology.
But, if we dismiss a literal creation account, we are then dismissing a literal Adam and Eve. If we dismiss a literal Adam and Eve, then the geneology is useless. It is fiction. Think about the implications. Please.
_________________
God put me on this earth to do a number of things.
Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
keepingthefaith
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have never thought of the geneology that way Elaine...very good thoughts  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:19 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Thanks Anne
_________________
God put me on this earth to do a number of things.
Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Sisyphus
Joined: 03 Dec 2006
Posts: 2142
Location: United Kingdom, Not Europe....
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Elaine wrote: | I
But, if we dismiss a literal creation account, we are then dismissing a literal Adam and Eve. If we dismiss a literal Adam and Eve, then the geneology is useless. It is fiction. Think about the implications. Please. |
As Anne says, a pat on the back for the geneology thoughts. I will however, repeat one more time, Gen 1: 1-25, the six days of creation, is the literal problem for me. Can you or anyone please point out where I am in error, I must be because I don't see anything to do with Geneologies, Adam or Eve in Gen 1:1-25.
Only today, on another thread, I have suggested an alternative interpretation on the rib of Adam. Assuming it is still acceptable to interpret scripture and not take it word for word slavishly, why would I be making such a post if I thought that the Adam and Eve creation was not correct or true?
Now, you may be used to this sort of arguing on other forums defending your beliefs against educationalists and elitists but I'm not. I purposely avoid things of this nature, it's one of the reasons I like this place. Consequently, for my part, I will not respond to any more pointless posts on this topic on this thread.
_________________
".... love thy neighbour as thyself." is the hardest thing I have ever done.... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Talitha Tetelestai
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Sis, for me, the thing is that God gave whoever it was who wrote Genesis the specific words to write.
Therefore, if He told them to call it six days when in fact it was six million years, well...thats a trifle disingenous of Him.
I don't believe He is like that - His holiness and integrity is absoloute.
So, for me, it has to be six days.
The other thing is too that it fits,with all the other layers in the Bible. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Talitha Tetelestai
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:44 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Ken Ham has some very good thoughts on this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Covenanter
Joined: 28 Aug 2006
Posts: 1446
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| M.C.Nige wrote: | | Talitha Tetelestai wrote: | | So, for me, it has to be six days. |
And for me!
In the 10 commandments, regarding the Sabbath day, Exodus 20 v 11 says:
"For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and all that is in them, but He rested on the seventh day. therefore the LORD blessed (past tense) the Sabbath day and made it holy"
This verse doesn't make sense if a day was e.g. 1000 years: For in 6000 years, the LORD made the heavens and the earth...but He rested on the seventh 1000 years. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath 1000 years and made it holy. Hmmm.... |
And yet many dispensationalists teach a 6 day, 6,000 year timescale from creation to Christ's second coming, followed by a 1 day/1,000 year millennium. The first century Letter of Barnabas makes the same point.
_________________
May the God of peace, who through the blood of the eternal covenant brought back from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, equip you with everything good for doing his will ... (Hebrews 13:20-21) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Talitha Tetelestai
Guest
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, I believe in a literal here on earth 1000 year millenium too, so I guess I'm doubly daft?   |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Elaine
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1712
Location: Derbyshire
|
| Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 11:49 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | Consequently, for my part, I will not respond to any more pointless posts on this topic on this thread. |
Gee thanks Sys. Nice to know how you feel
_________________
God put me on this earth to do a number of things.
Right now I'm so far behind I'll live forever!!!!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
